Dialog with Bibard

Feb 28
Bibard
Brother some of the sufi saints in indian punjab born to muslim families refered ALIF for the TRUE NAME OF GOD. I will explain u about this name. When a kid is born to a family parents/relatives give some name to him/her but its not that after birth kid gives names to the parends/elders coz they already existed and had some names also. Similarly we given names to God but God existed well before us so HE had some NAME than also. Muslims saints also said that to recite this name u dont need to move ur tongue or lips

Mar 04
Yusuf Estes
dear brother
Assuming that you are a Muslim, I ask you that before you explain the significance of Alif, you tell me what is the source of this knowledge. If Alif is really the true name of God then why did He choose to call Himself by the name Allah in the Holy Quran.

Mar 05
Bibard
Brother there is a difference between name and quality. Suppose u r a doctor. People may call u Doctor Yusuf or only Doctor. Your mother may call u son, ur son father and ur wife with some other quality of urs but still ur name remains to be Yusuf.
Similarly Allah got 99 names which r called ISM-A-SIFFAT, siffat means qualities. There is only ONE name which is called ISM-A-ZAAT (ZAAT means self) which doesnot comes into words so for it the place is just kept empty. We need a Murshid/Perfect Master/Messenger to enable us to listen to this NAME OF GOD.
God is ONE the method to achied God is also ONE and even THE RELIGION is also ONE. What u see so many religions around u r sects coz THE RELIGION is only ONE. I follow that RELIGION.
Somehow a frog from sea falls in the well (say after tsunami) where existed a frog already. Now the frog of the well asked the frog from sea that is ur sea this much big and well frog jumped 1/4th the size of well. The sea frog replied no its bigger. The well frog later jumped 1/2 the size of well but sea frog said that sea is still bigger. Than the well frog jumped from one corner to another. The sea frog laughed and said that its still bigger. That made the frog from well angry and said that go out of my well as nothing can be bigger than my well.
R u originally from indo-pak?
God is refered to as by some qualitative name coz there is no other way to mention HIS NAME. Like i told u the real NAME OF GOD doesnot comes in any language alphabets.
Brother BOOKs (including quran) r send by GOD but they always accompanied some MESSENGER. Why? Coz BOOKs r misunderstood by masses. Otherwise GOD could send BOOK alone. The meanings that we extract from BOOK is not always what GOD meant

Mar 05
Yusuf Estes
Brother, I asked you for the source of this information, about which you have not told me anything yet. If it is not in the Quran or in the Sunnah or in the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad then no muslim has the right to say that believing in it is a part of the religious obligations. Moreover it is only through the attributes and qualties of Allah that we come to know him. His zaat cannot be comprehended by us in this life. If anybody claims otherwise and has some personal experience to back up his claim then this is something for him to bother about and he cannot ask others to beleive in it.

This answer is only for someone who has already accepted Islam. For non-muslims who do not believe in the Prophet I have a slightly different explanation.

Mar 07
Bibard
I believe in Prophet and that he was the larst prophet for the arabs who lived during his tenure. If GOD send 1.24 lakh prophets for people who lived 1400+ years and none now means GOD is partial, HE did unjustice for us? Dont act like frog of the well. Grow

Mar 20
Yusuf Estes
Sorry for the late reply. Brother, what I understood from your previous post is that you believe in the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) but deny its finality. Your case is built upon an incorrect premise. You can either believe that he was not a Prophet of God (God forbid) or you can believe that he was the final prophet. No other possibility exists because of the clear statement of this fact in the Holy Quran.

033.040
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

Now, many people have tried to twist the translation of this verse but it should be noted that the words of the Quran are so clear that their knavery is self evident. The word used in the Quran is khatam (seal) and not khatim (last). Now, as you must be aware that once something has been sealed it means that there is nothing more that can be added to it. So, this means that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is not to be followed by any other prophet until the day of judgement. The books of hadith also contain explicit mention of this fact.

As for your saying that no messengers anymore implies injustice on the part of God, I wish to make it clear that this would have been unjust only if the message of the previous Prophet was lost and there were no means for the people to know the truth. I believe that such is not the case and that we have the book of Allah in its original form and we have access to all the necessary and vital information that was available to Muslims 14 centuries ago. And we also have people in the form of scholars who can help us better understand this message and to clear our doubts.

If you have any difficulty in understanding any aspect of Islam then I welcome you to share your problems with me. I will try my best to help you.

Mar 21
Bibard
HE was final prophet but for the arabs who were alive during his lifetime. Not for all mankind. There r prophets amongst muslims at many places after HIM and many more also
No spiritual literature only a Messenger/Guru can explain, al-quaida people also follow religious scholars. they also justify things according to quran. means either quran is wrong or al-quaida r not terrorists
When a messenger comes HE does not only gives u book or words, there is some practical aspect of religion also. Religion is not only theorey there is some practical part of it also. u will only understand once u have A MURSHID/GURU. there r 100’s of messengers amongst muslims only and they had lakhs of followers too
my Murshid/Messenger/Guru got more than 1 lakh muslim followers too
http://www.divyajyoti.org read more we have branches in the USA also

Mar 31
Yusuf Estes
Maybe you are confusing between, what we Muslims call, a Nabi (prophet) and a Rasool (messenger). The two are slightly different. A prophet is simply a non-divine human chosen by God to communicate His message. However, whenever a messenger comes, he not only delivers the message – like the prophets – he also admonishes and warns his direct addressees, that should they keep rejecting the message, they will not only suffer in the Hereafter, but will also be dominated in this world. The Messengers of God always prevail. Since Prophet Muhammad was also a Rasool so therefore I do agree that some of his preaching was time bound. But this in no way means that his entire message was meant only for the Arabs of his time. Also the time bound directives in the Quran stand out from the rest so that there is no room for any confusion if a person reflects on the words sincerely.
You said that “al-quaida people also follow religious scholars. they also justify things according to quran. means either quran is wrong or al-quaida r not terrorists ”
I would like to tell you that this could also mean that that the Quran is right and their religious scholars have misunderstood the Quran and that they, after all, are terrorists. The only way to know is to check what the words of the Quran say in this regard.
It is clear from the words of the Holy Quran that its message is meant for all human beings on the face of the earth not only during that time but for all times to come. For references from the Quran please check the following link http://www.irshad.org/finality/proof.php
I would like to stress that nowhere in any of the cited verses is it written that his prophethood was limited to the Arabs. If you still wish to ignore such a self evident reality that Prophet Muhammad claimed to be the last prophet for the whole of humanity then I don’t know what to say.
As a side point, if I agree with you, for the sake of argument, that he was the last prophet for the Arabs then will it not imply that God is unjust towards the Arabs!
I invite you to reconsider your stand and see things as they really are. Not how your murshid has told you.
The practical part of religion in Islam is included in the Sunnah of the Prophet and that has been transmitted to us through consensus and practical perpetuation of the Muslim ummah(nation). For further details please see http://www.renaissance.com.pk/JulSunn2y6.htm
I visited your site and couldn’t find any place where your guruji has claimed to be a prophet.

Mar 31
Bibard
We believe that whenever there is irreligiousness, God HIMSELF comes on earth to establish THE RELIGION and destroy the evil. This process is going on since this universe was created by GOD and will continue till dome day. Prophet Mohammad was one of the same strings. HE was not the larst INCARNATION OF GOD on earth.
If we agree to quran that Prophet was the larst and before him there were 1,24,000/- messengers. Than God seems like partial, HE send 1,24,001 messengers for people of 1400+ years ago. Dont u think we need one now also???
Brother this is just a propoganda strategy. If i say that my product is the best and is the larst piece left means consumer have no other choice. Christain/muslim preachers both claim that only their followers will go to paradise. Can both be right????
I agree that TRUTH is universal and is valid for all times also. But that is something different. Here u pretend to present a fake propoganda as THE TRUTH to which i have objections. U r not of indian origin otherwise i would have given u 1000’s of examples from muslim sufi saints (real ones, islamists have floated fake ones also), where they have not only criticized most of the muslim practices like namaz, roza, hajj etc and all the sufi saints had fought with the muslims who followed shariyah and all were followers of a GURU/MURSHID
Brother THE RELIGION is not only theorey there is some practical aspect in religion also for which u need a GURU/MURSHID. TRUTH IS ONE, GOD IS ONE AND THE METHOD TO ACHIEVE GOD IS ALSO ONE

Mar 31
Yusuf Estes

I apologize for the late reply brother
I have tried to address all your points as follows. For sake of brevity I have not given any references. If you will ask I will surely provide them.
1. I have a strong objection to the opinion that God Almighty himself incarnates and comes to the earth in human form. I consider this an impossibility for reasons which I will state if you want to know. However, the main point I want to stress in this regard is that Prophet Muhammad who you are presumably putting in this category of divine incarnations, actually unequivocally claimed the opposite- that he was as much human as anybody else and that Muslims should not go to extremes while mentioning him lest they become like the Christians who deified Jesus Christ(who was also a messenger) So I ask you to tell me that on what basis do you deny this fact.
2. Regarding God being partial if He sends no more messengers now I wish to tell you that the reason for sending of messengers is not to put all of humanity on the straight path or to destroy all evil. Rather it is to provide a means by which a sincere seeker of God’s guidance (with regard to his fate after death) can receive that guidance. This guidance was obtained by Muslims 14 centuries ago from the Holy Quran and can be obtained from the very same Quran even today . And as I mentioned before that even if I agree with you, for the sake of argument, that he was the last prophet for the Arabs then will it not imply that God is unjust towards the Arabs. Please explain this point.
3.You say it is a propaganda strategy. You look at it in that way while I see it as testimony to the fact that once the human civilization had advanced to such a point that it was possible for one message to be communicated all across the globe, then God deemed it fit for the last prophet to be sent. As for Muslims claiming that only their followers will go to paradise I want to clarify that this is a misunderstanding of many Muslims. In fact the Muslims were warned against developing such beliefs by giving them the example of the Jews and Christians who did the same. It is only unfortunate that many Muslims still did what they were warned against. But I can assure you that the Quran is free from any such understanding that mere association with some one group will earn you paradise.
4. Although I consider many aspects of sufism as foreign to the religion of Islam but would consider it worthwhile for you to tell me which prominent Sufi ever criticized the daily prayers and fought against Muslims over the shariah.
5. I agree that there is a practical aspect to religion. This is termed as Sunnah in Islam. As a term, it means the practices of the Prophet Abraham to which the Prophet Muhammad gave religious sanction among his followers after reviving and reforming them and after making certain additions to them and it consists of the practices that have been part of the religion of all the previous prophets. It should be noted that this Sunnah was there even before the Quran was revealed and is a fundamental source of guidance along with the Quran. It consists of the practices like namaz, fasting, rituals of sacrifice, nikah, things related to the purification of the body, etiquettes of eating etc.
These practices have come down to us by the perpetual adherence of the previous generations of muslims with the chain extending right up to the Prophet’s and his companions. Since we have these practices all preserved even today I disagree that a messenger is absolutely necessary for such practices to be followed.

Apr 19
Bibard

Following Prophet Mohd in terms of actions is wrong. Only a doctor can understand why the other doctor acted in some way during treatment. Film makers r right to judge which film is better and why. Similarly a spiritualist of the level of Prophet Mohammad can only suggest which action of Prophet is meant for what purpose
All sufis criticized shariyah including namaz, roza etc those who followed were muslim preachers not sufi saints, they were donkeys with white lines pretending to be zebras
I can give u references from muslim saints who says so even about prophet mohd they said was GOD in the form of Ahmad (Bulleh Shah).

Apr19
Yusuf Estes
An obvious outcome of professing faith in a prophet is that he should be obeyed at the behest of God. The Almighty has made it very clear in His Book that a prophet is not merely to be revered, he is to be obeyed also. He is not sent that people merely regard him to be a prophet and then leave him aside; he is not merely one who counsels and preaches; he is a guide who must be obeyed. The very objective of his coming is that whatever guidance he provides in all affairs of religious life must be followed without any hesitation. The Almighty says:
And whichever Messenger We sent forth, was sent so that he be obeyed by God’s authority. (4:64)
The reason for this is that God does not directly interact with His servants. He gives guidance through prophets and messengers. No doubt, the real objective is to obey God. However, the means through which He can be obeyed is by obeying his prophets. In verses such as (He who obeys the Prophet, in fact obeyed God, (4:80)) and others of similar meaning, the Almighty has alluded to this reality. He has also stated the ultimate limit to which a prophet needs to be obeyed: people must whole heartedly and without any hesitation accept his decision in disputes which arise among them. The Quran says:
I swear by your Lord that they cannot be believers until they accept your decision in their disputes and whatever you decide they submit to without any unwillingness of their hearts. (4:65)
Now, your statement that only a spiritual mentor can tell which directives are to be followed and which not is not acceptable because of the following reasons:
1. The directives of the Prophet meant for all human beings untill the Last Day are so clear that people, who can excercise their intelligence in the light of their innate conscience, will have no qualms about accepting them.
2.Even if there are any doubts that people may have, then there are religious teachers and scholars who are dutibound to make clear these directives.
3.It is only in matters relating to religion that these directives have been given. In other matters one is free to make use of his own God given intellect.
4.If one suspends his own thinking and agrees to blindly follow his Guru or Murshid then such an attitude may lead to intellectual stagnancy and may well deprive him of knowing the truth. You should question your murshid in the same way as a muslim can question his religious teacher.
5. Moreover, this appears to be a strawman argument unless you quote some examples of where and why muslims have been misguided due to following the Sunnah of the Prophet, and how your spiritual teacher has shown us some better way.

I am still awaiting some credible source of reference for your claim that any Sufi worth his name ever fought the muslims over the Shariah or criticised the fundamental practices like namaz or roza.
As for Bulleh Shah saying the Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a god incarnate, I would like to draw your attention to the explicit denial of this fact in the following verse of the Quran which was given to us by Prophet Muhammad.
Say: “Glory be to my Lord! Am I not but messenger who is a human being?” And nothing prevents men from professing faith when guidance is revealed to them but the excuse: “Can it be that God has sent a human being as a messenger?” Tell [them]: “Had the angels been walking about comfortably in the earth, We would have sent down to them an angel from heavens as a messenger.” (17:93-95)

Apr 20
Bibard
God is in each atom and HE is inside u and me also and that is the only place where u and me can find HIM. God can be SEEN with the help of Guru and i have seen HIM already. What else proof of this i can give u except that u can also SEE GOD inside ur own body to know how read http://www.divyajyoti.org
Quran is definaltely a scripture of the fake propogandists of islam religion and it has nothing to do with even Prophet Mohd. Its not the same as brought by Prophet otherwise how it can differ from TRUTH on many occassions
If quran was ok than there was no need for many sufi saints to reject it and follow their own Murshid/Guru and they faced the music of muslim clerics
Sant Sarmad another muslim used to recite only half of the kalma ie upto “La illaha” means “Nahi hai allah” or denial of God coz HE knew that Kalma is only for those who accept BAIT from some living Murshid of their time.
Sant Sarmad was beheaded at Delhi. He was asked by a messenger from Aurengzeb the king to recite full kalma in front of the friday prayer crowd. He prefered dying over telling a lie
How can u give sahadat of some murder unless u have SEEN? the act
God incarnated on earth many times in Human Form and according to need of the hour HE presented HIMSELF differently. For eg Son of God in case of Jesus

Apr20
Yusuf Estes

You say that no other proof that I can see God inside me can be given, except that you have seen God with your Guru’s help . My dear friend please reconsider your statement. How can your testimony of your own personal experience serve as proof for me? It may be proof for you but when you want to make another person understand your view you have to give him something for himself. Something that he can himself analyse and study. It may well be possible that you and your guru were misaken in what you saw. Please tell me how you ascertained that you infact saw God and not something else. All these personal experiences have no room in the world of reason as long as you cannot reproduce them. I am not saying that you did not have any experience. All I am saying is that it cannot serve as evidence for anybody else.
There are many incidents reported of such experiences across the world. Surely, you will not expect me to believe all of them with no proof, especially if they go against other rational inferences of mine. So it would be better if we talk about things in a manner that puts our brains at work and keep such personal experiences aside (unless, of course, if you can make me experience something similar and definite).
As for your website, I am having problems accessing it. So, please paste whatever material you want me to consider over here or email it.
You say that Quran is a book of fake propagandists and not something that was given by Prophet Muhammad. I would lik to draw your attention to the fact that it has reached us through the most credible of means i.e. Hundreds and thousands of the Prophet’s companions learnt it by heart and then passed it on verbally to the next generation, which in turn memorised the text in great numbers and this process is still continuing. We read the book everyday during our 5 prayers and it has been such since the Prophet’s time.
As I understand it, your statement stems from your opinion that the Quran disagrees with the truth on many occasions. I ask you to please tell which disagreements are you referring to.
You also seem to take it for granted that the Sufis were right, so if they disagreed with the Quran then it must imply that the Quran is wrong. I ask you to first tell me how do you know that the Sufis were always right?
Aurangzeb is a controversial figure in history. His personal rise to power is not a laudable story – it consisted of political assassinations and imprisonments. His rule had many temples destroyed but it also had many temples protected!!. He even gave safe passage to one of the Sikh gurus while one of his nominees over the Punjab state burned alive one of the Sikh leaders. He favoured muslims over hindus in his administration. His use of the treasury was impeccable. He led a hermit’s life as an emperor. A british traveller, desribed his appearance as one of a saint with a hallow while his troops were drunk and engaged in debauchery.

As you can see, the evidence goes both ways about Aurangzeb. It is difficult to conclude. However if the beheading took place only because of his denial to say the kalimah then of course it was wrong and Aurangzaeb guilty.
As I see you are intent on stating that God incarnated, I hereby ask you that if you are ready to discuss this further I can state my objections against such an idea to which you should post your replies based on reason.

Apr 22
Bibard
Brother here we r discussing spiritualism and in it there r somethings which can be experienced only, words r handicapped they cannot convey fully. This experience can be reproduced, i said that u can also SEE GOD, all u have to do is to go to ur nearest centre of http://www.divyajyoti.org in USA and show ur interest in spiritualism and TRUTH.
It will not cost u anything
reading quran is not the purpose of life, problem is that u have not arrived still. A saint from india said that if i see a child going to a religious place i feel happy but if i see an old man comming out of a religious place i feel like crying. This is like a kid is admitted to class 1 at the age of 5 and he is still in the same class at 60
No i dont follow sufi’s blindly infact my practical experience of GOD is same like them but to prove a point i need to code and in indian sub continent they r trustworthy names
I said that no other proof except that i have see HIM and u can also see HIM through the grace of a SATGURU of our time. After seeing will u ask for proof again???

Apr23
Yusuf Estes

Dear brother
Even if words cannot express your experience fully you can atleast explain it partially, so that I have some idea of what you are talking about. Did you see God in some bodily form or was it just a voice that spoke to you or was it some ethereal feeling. How did you ascertain that it really was God and not something else. I dont mean to ridicule you but tell me if I ask you a few difficult questions can you ask God those questions and then answer me about them. If you answer correctly I will be inclined to give your experience some credibility.
As far as I inquired there is no branch of your institute in my town. So it will not be presently possible for me to visit it.
I feel this proposal of mine should settle the issue. I am not asking you to show me God, just to ask Him some questions on my behalf. But, if you are unable to do so then atleast give my view about God some respect and lend me a patient hearing. I assure you that you will appreciate my perspective which is based on the Holy Quran.

Apr 23
Bibard

Bible says, “God is light, in HIM there is no darkness at all”. Even in quran GOD is refered to as NOOR (light). I seen GOD in the form of divine Light inside my own body with the help of THIRD EYE/Divine eye by the help of my GURU/MURSHID
No i am not yeat able to communicate with GOD but there r other disciples of my GURU who can
What i have got is well explained in many religious books. My GURU got more than 1 million muslim believers too and we have muslim preachers too.
we respect Prophet Mohammad and quran also equally but our Murshid/Guru is more supreme than all the MESSENGERS/GURU’S of the past for us.
U can ask ur questions and i will try to get answer for u
See brother i was born in pakistan and lived there for 24 years of my life and i know what u have to tell me the same i have been told 1000’s of times before also but i have not fallen prey
But i must appreciate ur patience, u r not like others from ur community perhaps coz of US up bringing and values

Apr24
Yusuf Estes
Peace be with you dear brother
I hope you will excuse me for being late in my replies.
Before I ask you the questions that I mentioned in my last post let me clarify that the verse talking about Allah being the noor of the heavens and the earth does not mean the physical light i.e. it is not talking of some electromagnetic wave. This is a poetic use of the word. If you feel interested I may send you a link elaborating upon it. Don’t think that I understand you to have taken it in the other meaning. I wrote this just to clarify.
You say you are not yet able to communicate with God. Well, then the question remains that how did you ascertain who it is that you see.
I don’t think it to be profitable to get into the business of deciding who was greater- Prophet Muhammad or any other messenger. In this regard I strive to follow the guidance of the Quranic verse 2:285 –They (believers) say, “We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers” – and they say, “We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all).”
All I ask from you is a patient hearing as I consider it highly probable that the message of Islam wasn’t conveyed properly to you.
Now the questions that I wish you to answer so as to convince me of the credibility of your experiences are:
1. My mobile phone has google maps installed on it but it does not give my correct location. I want you to tell me which city does it show me to be living in?
2. I have been lately reading a novel. What is the name of that novel?
3. I recently gave a presentation at my university. What was the topic of that presentation?
4. What is my real name and where am I currently living?
5. Where is my father living presently?
Surely God knows all this. Also answering these questions will not entail some difficulty as it will not amount to disorder in the universe.

May 03
Bibard

Even Aurengzeb asked to the than GURU to show some karamat/miracle to prove his greatness. The than Guru said that i am not a magician, what u r asking perhaps some good palmist may tell u but Guru will never induldge in all this
Try to understand me i lived in a muslim country for more than 24 years ie pakistan and i heard all that u wish to tell me many times. The quran that i available with u is not the one that is brought by prophet and transation of now a days muslim ulmas is all rubbish. I only trust some muslim sufi saints and their references from quran. like Bulleh Shah, Sultan Bahu, Sant Sarmad, Maulana Rumi, Rabiya Basree, Ameer khushro etc
The propoganda that is being funded by OIL money is fake and i have no time to listen it again and again and again, there is a limit to anything. sorry if i sound harsh to u.
The muslim saints names that i mentioned r 100% right and says exactaly what the TRUTH is. Even my GURU have got lakhs of muslim disciples who know what the exact religion is and they and i have same religion.

May 07
Yusuf Estes

Realize that I am not asking you to show me some miracle or tell me about the future. All I ask you is to answer 5 simple questions whose answer I already know.

If you refuse to answer any of my questions then how can you expect me to believe your story that you see God and some of your friends even converse with Him.

Moreover you yourself said that I can ask whatever I like and you will try and answer my questions.

But instead of even attempting to answer them you have started to rubbish my religion and my Holy book. You are free to hold your own beliefs but please have some consideration for the other person’s sentiments when you make such claims. Also when in an academic discussion I expect you to provide some evidence for your assertions.

If you don’t have time to listen to my views then why did you in the first place start scrapping to me? Your friend Rish.Rocks has ended his correspondence on a very offensive note just because I asked him a few questions regarding idol worship. I hope you don’t follow suit.

Also understand that you may consider the Sufis that you mentioned as infallible but I see them as ordinary human beings who also made mistakes. Neither did they make the claim of being 100% right on all religious matters. Also, I think you have made it clear that your guruji has many muslim followers so please don’t keep repeating that. Number of followers is not the criterion to judge the veracity of someone’s claims. Rather the rationality and evidence behind it is the main factor.

May 08
Bibard
OK u ask similar questions from ALLAH and let me know the answer? is it possible? What u r trying to do is not the criteria to test a GURU, the criteria is the divine knowldge to which i tested and find fit. GURU will not follow u will have to follow. Why cannot u treat as SEEING GOD urself as a proof. Go to ur nearest centre

May 08
Yusuf Estes

I never said that Allah communicates with me directly so why should I ask Him such questions. But you, on the other hand, have been telling me that your guruji has divine knowledge and can communicate with God. In order to test the truthfulness of your claim I asked you those questions. God knows everything and so He should also know the answer to my questions. I don’t understand why it should be difficult for your guru to get the answers if his claim is true.
Prophet Muhammad was asked questions by the people of medina which God answered correctly in the Quran (for e.g. who was Cyrus, who were the seven sleepers etc.) and this was one of the proofs for his prophethood (even though he only claimed that an angel comes to him from God and not that God himself conversed with him.)
So why are you shying away from this challenge if you are really truthful.
If I had a centre of your organization near my town I would have certainly paid it a visit. If you want me to make a 400 mile journey to your centre then give me some reason for doing so. If only you had answered my questions I would have been really excited to go there and would not have wasted a minute in getting ready.
You talk of seeing God as being proof. But how did you recognize God?
I can tell you of a man who was arrested for some criminal offense and he said Jesus told him to do so. When the judge asked him how he recognized Jesus he answered – by his portraits! Those paintings are just imaginations of people as to what they think he looked like and none date back to the time of Jesus.
So if you can’t have Him answer simple questions then who will guarantee that what you see wasn’t some spirit posing as God.
If cross-questioning is not the criterion for judging a person’s veracity then what is?

Dialog with Rish.Rocks

The following is a copy of the dialog that took place between a Muslim and a Hindu on the social networking site www.orkut.com

 

Before anybody accuses me of plagiarism I want to acknowledge that most of the things that I (the Muslim) wrote are either verbatim reproductions from lectures and speeches of various Islamic speakers or obtained from various Islamic websites. Also, I am not a scholar of Islam and do not claim to have expert knowledge. But I do have a good time assimilating it from diverse sources or as Sheikh Yusuf says-“get the hay down so the goats can eat it.”

 

Another thing I want to mention is that I do not know Sheikh Yusuf Estes personally. Our Hindu friend here has probably taken me to be him because of my profile name. However, if you visit my profile the name is Yusuf Estes Fan.

 

 

 

 

Jun 2

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

As is evident you are a follower of the Sanatan Dharma

I have a few queries regarding the concept of God in your religion

Since you are very fervently supporting it I feel you could help me out

Please let me know if you are willing to have a dialogue

 

 

 

Jun 2

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram brother……

 

i am delighted to read ur scrap….

 

thats fine i am ready for talks…please be free to put your queries to me.

 

thanks.

 

jai sri ram

 

 

 

Jun 3

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

Thanks for responding

 

In the very beginning I would like you to know that as muslims we are required to worship only one God without any partners.

How does Sanatan Dharma differ ?

 

 

 

Jun 3 

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…..

 

dear brother thanks for your query….the answer is as follows….

 

The idea of one god is not disputed in sanatan dharm….god indeed is one and only…and therefore we also subscribe to the basic belief of god being onebut the difference is that we give it a shape according to our needs and imagination…

 

its ture that god has no partners so even we dont say or subscribe to the idea that god has partners…but at the same time….i will give you an example like: u in this pic are wearing a big beard and a cap but now if u change your look altogether then a child(ignorant hindus) might think that u are an all together different person but a grown up man(enlightened hindus) would say “that its the same yusuf in a different look”

 

in the begining when there was nothing and only god was there…..god created this universe..?? but no one ever explains what raw material did god use to create such vast universes and galaxies….the answer is given in the vedas…

 

it is that watever we see or touch is a condensed and altered form of that ancient energy whom we call god or allah….even muslims say that allah is everywhere…so it says all that allah inhabits and occupies everything, so it points out to just one thing that all the things wether animate or inanimate are made up of allah….i know it sounds wierd to many but this is the fact…….so does all the idols even u and me….but people often ask me that why then my sofa or my CD player answers to my prayer..??? so the answer is simple the viel of ignorance and ego has made all of us such that we cannot grasp the reality, and every other thing looks like an ordinary object…but when through yoga the viel of ego is slowly lifted then every object starts to show its true form…th

 

 

 

Jun 5

Yusuf Estes:

Peace be with you dear brother

 

Thanks for the reply, but I still have some questions regarding the following-

 

How is it that any shape and form can be attributed to God as per our own desires? After all God is, as we all agree, the Supreme Being- Exalted in honor and so, unless made permissible by Himself, can such ascriptions (which could also be denigrating to His glory) be justified?

 

By the example are you trying to say that all the different Deities (as mentioned in the Hindu mythology and as worshipped throughout households in India) are just different forms of the same God. If yes, I have a little more to ask.

 

I am glad to tell you that Islam too holds that in the beginning there was only God and then He created the universe, but we believe that for Him to create it no raw material was necessary. He can will things into existence from nothing.

 

Trying not to sound offensively self-assured I want to humbly correct you regarding Islam’s view on the omnipresence of Allah. Of course, Allah knows best but this is what I have understood.

 

Although many Muslims say that Allah is everywhere, they may not mean the same thing as others, who hold that God is permeating through the whole universe and is actually present in every atom, electron and so on. In Islam there is the one Creator and everything else is His creation What Islam teaches is that the knowledge of God is everywhere, the seeing of God is everywhere, the hearing of God is everywhere, the love, mercy and forgiveness of God is everywhere but He isn’t actually as a physical being present in the universe. He is outside His creation, above the heavens (which is the phrase we use).

 

Now the counter-argument would be that by putting God above the heavens we are assigning Him a place and so limiting Him within space. But we say that to say God is everywhere is to put Him in a place because you have put Him inside His creation- within the constraints of time, space etc. Saying that God is beyond His creation does not put him in some location because ‘location’ came into existence with creation. 

 

 

Please forgive me if my views seem to belittle any belief of the Sanatan Dharma. I only intend to share ideas in a peaceful way.

 

 

 

Jun 5

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram….

 

dear brother i would like to draw your attention to one basic fact of yoga….it is that we the present humans only have about 2% of our mental faculties activated, and the rest 98% remains dormant all through our life, this fact has also been testified in medical science.

 

now wat happens to the rest of the 98% of our brain is that it remains dormant, and the only way to awaken(in yoga we would prefer to say energise) it we will have to draw in huge amounts of pranic energy or prana(in sanskrit) also known as faiz(urdu) and barakka(in arabic)… all this is attained by doing dhikrs and practicing other form of yoga and meditation….i il not go in those details at this moment.

 

so dear brother u and me and our other fellow members of the society will not and cannot comprehend the real essence of god or allah, the hindus believe this way because they have been taught this way and the muslims believe that way because they have been taught that way….every common man is spiritually locked and when the lock is opened he realises that that their is nothing else other than god and that he too is a part of god and god himself.

 

so with that amount of intellegence(2%) man only percieves god to be unreachable, absolutely remote and something alien, this thing happens with hindus also they worship different deities but never dare to be one with them because they think that it is impossible or something very difficult,but when a yoga practitioneror saint energises the dormant areas of the his brain then he slowly realises that there is nothing in this world except god or SRI RAM/ allah, he finds himself and other things merging in the supreme being, from where they originated.

 

man is lik

 

 

 

Jun 9

Yusuf Estes:

Peace be with you dear brother

 

Thanks again for replying and bearing with me

Brother, even if the spiritually locked man is able to use only 2% of his intelligence and the rest is to be unlocked through meditation practices I feel that there must be other ways to find the Truth and only if all these different ways lead you to the same ideology/way of life/religion would one be absolutely satisfied about it. Also, I feel, since it is the Creator who has endowed us with the capability of reasoning so that we can judge between different opinions, if we after removing all personal bias and prejudice apply sound reasoning to any ideology we can surely arrive at the right conclusion even without the use of any mystical exercise. Your comments….

 

If you agree with what I just wrote then I request you to kindly explain the rationale behind the belief regarding God Almighty taking a human form and coming down on this earth as a man.

 

 

 

Jun 9

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram….

 

dear respected brother first let me tell you that you write really good english…i have seldom seen muslims having good command over the language..

 

dear brother like you have said that there must be other ways to find the truth…i agree with this statement of yours but at the same time i would to point out that we should also appreciate the fact that all the visible different forms of worship bring about psyco-physiological changes based on the same principles……..the various forms of worship vary in their speed(the fast reacting ones for the advanced students and the slow and mild ones for the beginners).

 

the beauty of SANATAN DHARM is that this is the only religion that explains that wat actually happens when a practitioner advances towards god……how do the nervous system reacts, wat happens to the breath, how does the breathe helps one finding his true self and so on…………(millions of other things)…….

these things are not explained in any other religion…..

 

Only SANATAN DHARM explains spirituality in minutest technical sense….notrhing then remains mysterious and everything is taught like we study science an

 

yes surely the creator has endowed you with reasoning…but make noistake in recognising what is the subject matter that you have to reason out….you are( your mental faculties) are structured to reason out algebric expressions, to learn mathmatics and to understand history and political science, and to invent new things to bring about social chanegsand political uprisings..and the various other modern day subjects….

 

most of the people belonging to any religion for that matter have bloated egos and think that they know a lot….but what they know is only what they have been allowed to know…but for them that is the end of the world and one day they depart from this world, knowing nothing.

 

everything that has any spiritual connection no matter which religion it belongs to is locked, or we can say has two meanings one for the common people and one for the sincere seeker, who has activated his dormant mental faculties, such a person starts to percieve the world with a very different p

 

dear brother the last question that u have raised is of the rationale behind god taking human form……..so on this front i would like to say that the love and compassion of a devotee compels the ultimate lord to take human form…..i will explain how….suppose some devotee practices austerities and is completely devoted to god and one fine day god, who is very happy with this devotee appears(since it has no shape lets assume a light appears) and conveys to that devotee that now his wait is over and the almighty is in front of his eyes and afte a while, the god wants to leave but the devotee in no way and under no circumstances want the god to leave and cries his heart out and rolls on the floor in agony, then the god asks him that what does he actually wants?? so the devotee says that i want to see u, feel u, feed u, be with u everywhere, so the god says that i have always been with u its just that u didnt know all this while, and also in future i will be with u always like i do with eve

 

 

now the question would arise that when SANATAN DHARM says that we are god ourselves then why is there a cry for god to appear as a human being among us.???the answer is: breaking the nut shell and realising the god within ones own self is not everybodys cup of tea, it is and would always be one of the most difficult tasks to accomplish.

devotees who have deliberately staye away from the hard to comprehend technicalities of yoga and have treaded the other more easy forms of worship have usually been able to invoke god but not within there ownself, because of technical reasons, to them the lord appears as a different entity, in their desperation they ask the lord to take human form and do as the other ordinary people do.

In SANAATN DHARM they have been many instances where saints(as u would call them)(we call them god) have appeared out of nowhere and lived all their, so calledl ives, with the comon people and they have alway revealed at most opportune moments to the sincere seekers

 

 

 

 

 

brother i request you not to delete these messages and please compile them and mail them back to me for my records.thanks.

jai sri ram

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jun 10

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

I am not replying right now as your last few messages seem to be clipped off at the end.

I have made changes in my settings so you can now view the scrapbook.

 

 

Jun 10

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…

 

dear brother i have seen the msgs they have indeed disappeared somewhere.

 

well i just have to add one thing tht has the appearance of god in human form has always been within the hindu society one such saint(as u would call them)( we call them god) is in my album , the bald hefty man.

 

there are innumerable instances when this man used to busy himself in all the ordinary daily chores and to the dismay of some of his disciples he was once seen arguing with a taxi driver alleging that he was charging more fare………but i have met people who have seen his true form the form that he revealed to his most sincere disciples, once he ordered one of his closest disciples to follow him to the forest in the dead of the night, and then when they reached the forest the disciple gathered courage and asked him what it was all about??? then he said that u really are a spoilt brat, you have troubled me for so many of your past lives, and now hold your breath……then he assumed such infinite dimensi

 

so dear brother this is all i have to say…….

 

many people come up with bizarre arguments that all that i have just talked baout cud be some trick like david coperfield does and other foolish explanations…so i just keep quite as i know that this is what a loser does, keeping on muttering whatever comes into his mind and thinking that he has won the battle.

 

and our scriptures have sternly commanded that, “one should not get into any sort of arguments with fools and sceptics”

 

please visit india someday and if SRI RAM willing i will take you to such temples that you will not believe your eyes.

 

jai sri ram

 

 

 

 

Jun 12

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

I feel that from all the discussions we have had so far the concept of God has been diluted a bit too much and the constructs have been difficult for me to grasp.

 

It would therefore be useful if we both first agree on a few points regarding God and his attributes so that the facts become easier to comprehend.

 

1 God is one and without any partners. By one I mean He is indivisible – it can not be that we have one God doing one thing and another one doing the opposite with an independent ability, totally unaware of what the first God is doing. Such a scenario would only result in chaos.

 

But, if we observe carefully, the whole universe is clearly a work, a production and a management of a single mind. There is nothing in the physical world, which leads us to believing in the existence of a second or a third god. Even the apparently opposing phenomena in the world combine to form unblemished harmony and a sweet rhythm. Although the skies, the earth, the moons and the stars, are independent entities and one may be driven by the apparent diversity and variety in them to consider them the production of different architects, yet they all combine together to form a single system, in which each is playing its allotted role.

 

The scorching heat of the summers and the chilling cold of the winters may by its apparent variation draw one to believe in ascribing seasons to different gods, yet with the advancements of our knowledge of the physical world, we know today that the change in seasons is only a result of the systematic movements of the celestial bodies. Likewise, the variation in the phenomenon of life and death can lead us to ascribe the two to different powers, yet a closer look at the two would show that, under the present physical setup, death is essential for the sustenance of life itself.

 

It is primarily because of the complete lack of any plausible argument in favor of the existence of other deities as well as the lack of authorization from God to the effect, that Islam considers ascribing false partners to God, as a blasphemy against God and thus, an unforgivable sin.

 

2 God is limited in certain ways as His omnipotence is subject to His mercy, wisdom, omniscience and His other attributes. This is a very essential teaching of Islam because otherwise a person will have no answer to questions based on a ‘Playing Tom’ view of an omnipotent God, such as: “If God is ‘omnipotent’, can He create another one like Himself?” Or “if God is ‘omnipotent’ can He commit suicide?” Or “If God is ‘omnipotent’; can he throw the pious in Hell and place the evil in heaven?”

 

3 Every human being at some stage of his life does ponder over the question that why does he exist The very question regarding the ‘whyness’ of the existence of man and other created objects comes into play only because man, the universe and other creations are, in fact, created objects. It is only when we realize that man is created (and not the Creator himself), do we ask ‘why is man created’. Had man existed on his own, without being created, the question regarding the ‘whyness’ of his creation would not even have arisen. Only when something exists on its own, is it, itself, the reason for its existence.

 

Please go through these premises at least 4-5 times and let me know if any clarifications are required.

 

Brother, these and a few more are the basic points, upon which my entire religion is based, and only when I get to know what Santana Dharma has to say about them would we be able to have a fruitful discussion.

 

 

 

Jun 12                                                                      

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram….

 

dear brother i have gone through the messegaes that you have wriiten and I dont have much to say now, because i will have to repeat what i have said before that there is no question two or three different gods and SANATAN DHARM doesnt endorses this idea at all. all it says is that there is one god in different forms.

 

you cannot se god, you call him invisible because you never wanted to see god, the preponderence of the idea of the god being absolutely remote is what drives people to have these kindof ideas..

 

brother i gently urge you to read AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI written by Paramhansa Yogananda, which has been a best seller the world over, then you will have an insight in the technical realities(as per SANATAN DHARM) of spirituality.

 

I KNOW U WILL SURELY LOVE THAT BOOK.

 

JAI SRI RAM

 

 

 

Jun 13

Rish.Rocks:

no where has anybody in my social circle claimed to have known different gods on the basis of extremeties like you have mentioned in your scraps.

 

it would be for people with very shallow intellect to ascribe different gods, like your god and my god, on the basis of extremeties like weather, geographical positions and so on……

 

that true that man was created and the universe and stars were created, but please dont forget the fact that they were created by god out of his ownself. why would god want to keep himself aloof from the common people???? is god full of ego..?? is god proud to be god??? he permeats every atom….thats what SANATAN DHARM says……and there are millionsof forms in which ihe is worshipped, and that is not at all ascribing a partner to him.

 

if i like you in a different attire then would it be that i am ascribing yusuf any other partner.???

certainly not i ust like to see you in another attire…thats as simple as that.

 

in gods knowledge there no ego, no hatred no sense feeli  

 

 

 

Jun 15 

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be on you dear brother

 

Sorry to tell you that we wont be able to exchange any message for the next 10 days as I’m visiting my grandma’s place.

 

The good news is that I have got hold of the book you told me about and I’ll try to finish it by the time we get back to our discussion.

 

Peace

 

 

 

Jun 20

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram ….

 

oh my pious brother…..if you hold your hand you still hold my hand, if i hold my hand i still hold your hand, if i hold your hand I am still hodling my own hand………….oh brother lets endeavour together to forsake the rudimentry dogmas of tradition and tread the path of truth to realise the underlying unity, that you and I and god are actually one and the same.

 

march ahead and break the shell..!!!!

 

jai sri ram

 

 

 

Jun 12

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

I’m sorry I didn’t get the chance to read the biography but I promise I would soon have a look at it.

 

Resuming our discussion from where we left it I would like to point out that you probably read me wrong. I haven’t yet talked about the invisibility of God; rather I was mentioning the INDIVISIBILITY of God. When a person says that human beings can be God then, among other things, he is negating the fact that God is INDIVISIBLE (the meaning of which I have stated in premise no.1), but humans are all creatures who can think and act independently and their actions do clash. This only implies that inside God there is a constant conflict and He has different opinions about the same thing. This, of course, is an absurd thing to say.

 

You say that once the veil of ignorance is lifted a man realizes he is God. You may propose that now he acts in the way that God would have acted in identical circumstances but even then how does one explain the presence of the ignorant people who are also Gods. Isn’t that ignorance being attributed to God – the All-Wise and All-Knowledgeable?

 

 

 

Jun 30 

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram dear brother…..

 

kindly go through the book once….and then we will resume our discussion.

 

i guarantee that you will find the book very interesting.

 

jai sri ram

 

 

 

Jul 10 

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram dear brother…

 

hope you have gone through the book…

 

jai sri ram

 

 

 

Jul 12

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

I still have a few chapters left. Hopefully, I might finish them off in 2-3 sittings.

 

 

 

Jul 13

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…dear brother its good to learn that you have been reading the autobiography…it will really give you as insight in hindu spirituality based on yoga..

 

 

please let me know when you have finished reading the book

jai sri ram

 

 

 

Jul 18

Yusuf Estes:

Peace be with you dear brother

 

I have read the autobiography and must admit that it was very interesting. Truly, it turned out to be something I had least expected. However, the book doesn’t address many of the questions that I have, and understandably so, as it’s not intended to be a point by point rebuttal to questions that people of other faiths have regarding the Hindu beliefs.

 

But now that I have at least some familiarity with beliefs of my Hindu brothers, the nature of the Guru-Disciple relationship and a crude idea of what Yoga really is, I feel that our discussion would be more productive.

 

As many events mentioned are a bit too hard to be believed just by reading them I ask you to first tell me whether or not you endorse every single thing mentioned in the book.

 

 

 

Jun 18

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…

 

yess dear brother even before you have mentioned i knew that the contents of the book would certainly put any prudent man who is bred in todays scientific environment to probe wether its really true or not..???

 

 

yess i fully endorse every single bit written in this autobiography because i have been fortunate enough to understand the principles of yoga and what an accomplished yogi can be capable of doing…….what ever is written is ture to its every detail and the yogic phenomenons and other miracles were a common sight until afew centuries ago, before the advent of of the so called industrial revolution which came with the british occupation.

 

 

as far as babaji(mahaavtar babaji) is concerned no amount of adjectives in any language can define his statute and truly so he is still living…..i ask u to test it yourself …..just think of him with pure heart and u will get back the messege…….this has been tried by many….one of such person is Marshal Govindan, any AMERICAN in the United States Foreign Service who concentrated hard on babaji and had gradually the chance to meet him in flesh and blood.

 

lease forgive me for any spelling and gramatical errors…

 

 

 

Jun 19

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

In one of my previous scraps I had requested you to explain the quite apparent inconsistency that arises when a person says that everything is God or a part of God and then also acknowledges the fact that there are ignorant people in the world.

 

If we agree that God is a being who is all knowing then in what way would you explain this contradiction in terms?

 

Also, as I read the biography, the author many times stressed the need for people to be rational and gives his approval to the idea that principles of rational and simple living should be inculcated in children but at certain other places he says that to achieve communion with the infinite every wall of rationalization should be demolished and in reality rationality is a subconscious barrier. In this regard I found him equivocating.

 

By being rational I mean that a person exercises his intellectual ability which allows him to know right from wrong or to know what must be, can be and cannot be. That is to say the human mind can achieve certainty regarding some things (for e.g. part of something is always lesser than the whole or 1 cannot be equal to 2 in case of natural numbers etc.)

Do you agree?

 

 

 

Jun 19

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram brother

 

i am delighted to find u online today…..

 

brother i would like to tell u that lke u have mentioned that the author is advocating the inculcation of rational and simple living and at other places he has said that rationalisation is a subconcious barier…..so i would like to tell u that he has used the same word with different connotations……on the frist instance where he is advocating it he is trying to stress the idea of yogic rationalism, and where he callsit a barier there he equates it with the modern scientific thought..which is indeed a barier to self realisation

 

yogic intellectualism is very much different from what the kind of intellegence and intellectual ability we find today….please refer to what i said in one of my scraps about only 2% of the brain of the present human beings at work…the rest is dormant….yogic intellect certainly consists of more than 2% of your brain functioning and that alters the way we percieve the mundane world….

 

here the author also stresses simplicity(as per your reproduction)…..in modern times rational thoughts cannot be combined with simplicity…a man of today who thinks rationally would be hell bent to take everything he encounters with logic based on his social and educational upbringing and while defying the supernatural and spiritual phenemenons, and with no one to provide him a satisfactory explanation he would swell with ego…which then forms a vicious circle and binds one to falsehood all through his life

 

 

 

Jun 20

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

How is ‘Yogic intellectualism’ different from the way every other rational person thinks? It would be appreciated if you explain that with the help of few examples. In case it’s true I may not be able to understand them but nevertheless you can still state your case.

 

As far as the basic fact of yoga regarding only 2% of the brain being activated is concerned you say that it is a fact testified in medical science. I request you to give some reference of a credible authority to that effect.

 

I ask you to do so because a google search returned results to the contrary saying that this is an old myth confuted by medical science.

 

Ref.  Under the heading Common Misconceptions on the page                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain

 

 

 

Jul 22

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…

 

dear brother had the theory of the functioning of our brain as per yoga been available on google than we wouldnt have been discussing it the way we are doing it right now…..yess verily the theories and realities of the world’s oldest religion are discarded away in derogatory manner, declaring it as a myth, this is the apathy that the world and the present civilisation is going through….realities and practices which are abundantly beneficial for the human race at large have just vanished or are put under suspision

 

i have read it somewhere in the newspaper here at new delhi and some of my doctor friends and their teachers have corooborated the fact about the functioning of the human brain….if i come across any such news article then i will surely let you know.

 

yogic intellegence is diffrent from normal human intellegence i will explain you how…..the brain of a person when it is allowed to grow at the way it grows now a days normally has some specific regions of its part as being active…….thats the normal person who doesnt practice yoga(by this i donot mean yoga of today(which is not real)..i strictily mean yoga as per ancient scriptures, hath yoga, kriya yoga etc……but a child who is put under such practoces from the very start certainly develops many other areas of the brain in addition to what a normaly bred child would develop..

 

now this thing makes the very difference…yess it doesnot alters the calculation 2+2=4 but a person with yogic intellect is internally inquisitive and would want to know where this calculation came from, where the no. 2 came from and so on…..i know it sounds a little confusing but to cut it short it would be like if i and u were to meet someday i would before hand know what you would like to talk about and what’s going on in your mind i may not now it fully but i can have fair idea, such a person has penerating sight and can get into the skin of everything through his supercharged brain cells.

 

few examples: the vedic scriptures and other hindu texts written thousands of years ago have complete astronomical science, it even has the atomic composition of far away planet like saturn and venus etc, how was it possible so long ago…even when we today with most modern technologies are still gropping in the dark

 

the same thing applys to a iron pillar which is situated at a historical complex in new delhi, the pillar is satnding out in the open for centuries and has withstood storms, rains etc but has never rusted till now, scientist from your sountry, russia and france along with some indian scientist tried hard to decipher the secret of such superior mettalurgy but have not been able to uncover the mystery, so brother a man who posseses yogic intellect is light years ahead in every dimension of human capabilites from is modern day counterparts

 

PS: where i have mentioned myself its just only for the purpose of creating an example and i have not been fortunate enough to put it into practice

 

 

 

Jun 24

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

I asked for a reference only because of your assertion that the fact was proved by science. It is a possibility and may or may not be true. But since there is, as yet, no way to validate such a claim it would only be fair if you avoid using it as a basis for belief.

 

What I want to know, in essence, is that what would have prompted you to become a Hindu had you not been born as one? Surely miracles can be cited as evidence but we must remember that they are proof only for the one who has himself witnessed them and not for the masses in general (even in the autobiography we observe that people, initially skeptical, became devout disciples only after they themselves saw miracles and were thereby convinced).

 

A person with ‘Yogic Intellect’ may have penetrating sight and may know what is going on in another person’s mind but you yourself confess that you have never put that in practice. How then do you know that it really happens? Maybe you accept it as part of your faith. No problem. It’s not an impossible explanation and may be entirely correct. But what I want to stress is that it is only an explanation unless you back it up with proof.  

 

In Islam we have certain core beliefs that can be defended by reason alone, without referring to scriptures. Every other belief follows from these fundamentals. Is there anything like that in Sanatan Dharma?

 

There are many Muslims who with their forced interpretations make a great fuss claiming to have found modern scientific miracles in the Quranic verses. I could give you a long list of these ‘scientific statements’ to prove my point but it is essentially a futile exercise as the cited verses are mostly implicit in nature and if a similar way of crooked reasoning is applied, a non-muslim can easily prove other such verses to be unscientific. What I mean to say is that unless explicitly stated a verse either in the Quran or in the Hindu scriptures cannot be insisted to be revealing a scientific fact as it could very well mean something else. So unless a crystal clear verse which can have no other possible meaning is presented as evidence such claims of technological advancements are unjustifiable.

 

Forgive me for being too blunt but I felt the whole discussion would go around in circles if the distinction between explaining something and proving something wasn’t clarified.

 

 

 

Jun 27

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram….

 

yess dear brother you have rightly pointed out that some muslims have forcibly tried to interpret the verss of the holy quran in order to extract modern scientific theories out of them….and i would like to add one more thing to the statement that you have made that all the divine scriptures have various meanings to it one is for the common people, it is the one that is visible to everybody and which is very obvious and the other are deep spiritual meanings that are not meant for everybody, only the sincere devotees get to know these emanings and such meanings are of such nature that they cannot be comprehended by a common person under any circumstances. Also these meanings cannot be made a hot topic to discuss in some public forum.

 

please try to understand that what i have meant to say in my previous scraps about the yogic intellectual capabilites and scientific advancement of that era doesnot points towards our divine scriptures, here i am talking about the extraordinary science that hindus had, and which has been destroyed due to various reasons. There in these scientific texts the question of forced interpretation doesnot arise at all, one such example is our ancient hindu astrology, which is a major part of almost all the citizens of this country, irrespective of their religion. i ouwld like to mention to similar books one is the NADI SHASTRA, written by SRI AGATSYA MAHARISHI 30 thousands years ago and one more is the BHRIGU SAMHITA written by BHRIGU RISHI, both these were highly advanced saints and SRI AGATSYA MAHARISHI was the guru of MAHA AVTAR BABAJI(the ever living saint of the autobiography), in both these books the futureof every individual and who had taken

 

birth before their time and all who would come after they take samadhi(equated with death but it really means distancing themselves from the material worldforever) is written, now you will be astonished to hear the details which of every other individual is covered in the book…….like for example if your thumb impression is matched in the old palm leaves, he even knew everybody’s thumb impressions, then you would be given your father’s name your grandfather’s, his father’s his father’s and so on…..and each and every deatail including the kind if thigs that you have seen in your life, how you look like, what dream you had on say the last christmas eve, who was your high school crush, how many women you have dated, what ailments do you suffer from and why..?? where will your son get married, how many children will he have……i mean to say that each and every deatial of your life, be it anyhting, it all there.

 

but alas not al the palm leaves are available now and many have been lost and destroyed, but there are many people who have experieced this in this modern era and absolutely astonished with these deatials, if you are lucky you could get your thumb impression matching in one of those impressions on those old palm leaves.i have not tired out mine, becauseof some apprehensions, but my father tried but his impression didnot match, one of my friends impression mathced and he has all the details with him now, the information is so vast that people only pick the relevent information to be noted.

 

 

 

 

 

One such example that warrants mention here is that of one Mr” Faisal who lives in London but is originally from Pakistan, he happens to be the neighbour of my uncle in London, in one such discussion he expressed is utter disbelief on such things saying that these things are not permitted in islam, but he was simply asked to try, and it was also made clear to him that there is a larger possibility of his impression not being availabe, on this, he reacted by saying that “this is the excuse that you are going to rely on if things dont work to your advantage”, anyhow his impressions matched and he was just left completely flabergasted and spellbound.so brother this is our ancient science, which is based on divinity. This is not a religious scripture, it is the scientific text, the same author had also written many other books on alchemy, medical science and mellurgy which have been completely lost.

 

 

 

 

 

One more example of immense important is that of SWAMI VIVEKANANDA, the modern day hindu saint and yogi, who had given a speech on sanatan dharm, at Chicago, which was widely acclaimed, he would just give a fleeting glance on any book and would memorise each and everything, including the punctuations. He was initiated in yoga by RAMKRIHSNA PARAMHANSA WHO USED TO FEED THE IDOL OF GODESS kali and the Dakhineshwar temple in Calcutta.

 

In Islam we have certain core beliefs that can be defended by reason alone, without referring to scriptures. Every other belief follows from these fundamentals. Is there anything like that in Sanatan Dharma?please explain this point in detail, with suitable examples, I am unable to understand it.

 

 

 

 

 

why would i want to become a hindu is a very difficult question and therefore I am unable to answer it, through the internet  

 

 

 

Jun 31

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

I am willing to accept anything that you may offer me as proof regarding the divinely inspired scientific advancements of the ancient Hindu society but would respectfully like to point out that all of the examples you quoted in your previous post do not constitute proof. Proof is something you can give to another man and let him analyze it, the deeper he analyses it the closer he gets to the truth. However, as you yourself admit that the books that were written have been lost, there is little that can be offered as proof.

 

Astrology on the other hand is considered a pseudoscience and so does not lie within the domain of what we discuss as scientific advancements.

 

As far as my statement regarding the core Islamic beliefs is concerned I am glad that you asked for an elucidation. Brother, almost all of the Islamic beliefs (predestination, existence of a hereafter, impossibility of god incarnating in flesh etc.) emerge from the recognition and understanding of the one Supreme Being. So, if I can provide a reasonable and logically consistent proof for the Islamic concept of God I can be certain of having a firmly grounded basis for belief.

 

One such proof is based on the following two premises

1. We exist here today.
2. Before we existed there were a series of events, one after another leading up to our existence today. (The passing of such a series of events is what we call time, and is measured in minutes, days, weeks and years.)

 

Before proceeding any further I want you to tell me whether you accept these premises or not.

 

 

Aug 5 

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram …

 

dear brother the elucidation about islamic beliefs that you have presented here is very very vague. Yes I do agree with these so called proofs that you have given here regarding our existence and the series of events but then anybody or everybody has to agree with these points. Well frankly I would like to confide in you that I and many other non-muslims are of the view that islamic beleifs are the most non practical and donot constitute of a solid proof at all, I have spoken to many muslims here and they just cannot explain their theories in the minutest technical terms, for eg: if i ask someone that why do you offer prayers five times a day and what does the movements mean?? What spiritual significance doeas these movemments have???? Why do you offer circumambulation of the Kaba??

 

I have had very bitter experiences regarding my dialogues with these muslim guy and also cleric, instead of giving any convincing answer they harp the same old tune that god cannot incarnate in flesh and so on………this only sows the seeds of bitterness and nothing else. On the other hand I had just once had a chance to enter into a dialogue with one american christian brother named Brother Braun, while in a flight to Mumbai he caught my attention when I noticed him holding a book titled Metaphysical Christian Meditations but I didnot ask him anything, on the other hand he broke the by comenting o my addidas jersey, we exchanged our ideas on spirituality and our respective religions at the end he gifted me one copy of the Holy Bible, the beauty of this three hour long conversation struck deep inside me, its not that I decided to become a christian and leave my faith, but the way he expalined me everything regarding his faith and the balance that he maintained while guarding his beliefs.

 

he was so serene so soft spoken, exhibited such opulence that I was convinced that Christ and his men hate none and love all. This wonderfull experience had forced me to make comparisons within myself, with the kind of bitterness and hatred displayed by the muslims with whom I had the dialogues.

 

Now as far as the proofs are concerned I really cannot understand that if people’s testimonies donot constitute a credible proof then what othe rthing would suffice.

 

The personal account of Mr’ Faisal who got all his records through our astrological science should suffice. The newspaper reports of your country which describe the phenomenal intellectual capabilities of Swami Vivekananda. The video recording of the speech of the former president of your country Mr’ Bill Clinton while addressing the Indian parliament where he declared that had the hindu scientist not contributed the ZERO then we wouldnt be having such technological advancements in science and computers.

 

One more thing that warrants mention here is that there is one Baba Ramdev who is a yoga practitioner and who has been credited by the common people of India as a messiah, he is credited to have made public the PRANAYAM (the special yogic breathing exercies).

 

His show is telecasted everyday in the morning and the evenings and millions of people do theseexercise diligently and the result is that millions of these practitioners have cured their various ailments like cancer, aids, diabetes, heart problems, obesity etc etc.

 

he has caused losses worht billions of dollars to multi national business conglomerates which produce medicine, because people no more buy them, people no more visit the hospitals.

 

so brother this is it, what the hindus have to offer is veru much there, much more evidently for anyone and everyone to try it on their own and experience it, where as no other religion has such thing ready thatcan be directly experienced.

 

And what all the others have offer is vague arguments, twisting and turning historical episodes, but nothing practical that can be experienced right then and there.

 

A hindu who is well versed in his scriptures cannot be surprised in anyway, its like if you come to India and I show you the elevator, as a matter of pride hoping to impress you in terms of our technological developements, then you would just laugh at it, saying to your own self “oh god how ignorant and backward these people are, that they dont even know, we had these things centuries ago”

 

I have read many books of islam and talked to many people but they did not tell me anything that would just catch me by utmost surprise, just nothing at all of that sort, I also just keep smiling and maintain my confirmatory nods thinking that they have light years behind us.

 

brither for your information I would like to tell you that astrology is not a psuedo-science, we consider it a complete science with complete explanations of cause and effect.

 

 

Aug 8

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you

 

Dear brother I apologize on behalf of the Muslims with whom you had discussions. It is really disappointing that members of our community do not take out time to read their scriptures and are unable to answer such basic questions. But please do not form an opinion based on the actions of a few unaware individuals.

 

You said the proof was vague. Brother, I have not yet presented my case. I only stated the premises of my argument. There are some people who claim to doubt everything, even sometimes their own existence. I just wanted to make sure that such sophistry or extreme relativism does not come in the way later.

 

I request you to bear with me for a while as I am not responding to all the other things you wrote in your last post. Please let me explain my case first which is as follows-

 

If one accepts the first premise then he must also accept that the series of events in the second premise must have a beginning. This must be, because if someone claims that an eternal amount of events had to be concluded before his existence, then he is saying that eternity came to an end, which is a contradiction in terms.

 

The argument is an instance of the pitfalls that you can encounter in talking about infinity. It is like if someone said “this car will only get to its destination after its wheels have spun infinitely many times,” and then claimed that the car arrived at its destination. It is clear, however, that the car could never have gotten to its destination if an infinite number of spins was the condition for its arrival.

 

Please let me know if everything I have said up till now is clear.

 

 

 

Aug 8

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram….

 

dear brother whatever you have written by now is somehow difficult to comprehend and also a little confusing…..it would be better if you could please simplify it.

 

jai sri ram

 

 

 

Aug 8

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

Even I found the infinity thing a little confusing at first, but believe me you won’t take long to comprehend it. I’ll try explaining it in simpler terms.

 

For a moment forget everything else I wrote and think about the example of the car which I gave.

 

I said that there is a car which has to travel from one point to another, that is to say it starts at one place and stops at some other place.

 

But the condition for it to reach its destination is that its wheels should first spin infinite number of times.

 

Now, infinity is not a very big number (although we represent it mathematically with a symbol) rather it is the quality or state of endlessness i.e. the wheels should go on spinning for ever and ever and ever and should never stop.

                                                                                                             

But if some time later someone says that the car reached its destination then we are up against a contradiction.

 

Because the car reaching its destination implies that the cars wheels stopped spinning.

 

But the condition of infinite spins requires that its wheels never stop spinning.

 

Since stopping and never stopping are mutually exclusive events they both cannot occur simultaneously.

 

Thus one has to conclude that the car will never reach its destination.

 

Please let me know if this is clear enough.

 

 

 

Aug 9

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…

 

dear brother thanks a lot , now you have made much simpler, I have understood it till now.

 

you may please proceed.

 

jai sri ram

 

 

Aug 10

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

I suppose that now you can better understand what are called as ‘verbal absurdities’ or ‘contradiction in terms’.

 

If I say that my great-grandfather knew how to draw ‘circular squares’ then would you believe that?

 

If you know how square shapes and circular shapes are defined you wouldn’t even care asking for a copy of those drawings. You know such a thing cannot exist, because it doesn’t mean anything. The term is a verbal absurdity.

 

So, if someone said that an infinite amount of time (or an infinite number of events) preceded our existence then he just made a statement which contains a verbal absurdity.

 

The absurdity is that – infinity ended. Infinity is defined as the state of endlessness, then how can it end. If it ends it isn’t infinity.

 

If occurrence of infinite amount of events is the precondition for our existence then we should never have come into existence (make a comparison with the car never reaching its destination). But you have agreed that we exist here today.

 

The only other alternative is that the number of events that precedes our existence must have a limit or in other words these series of events had a beginning.

 

Before I continue please tell if you have any doubt?

 

 

 

Aug 10

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…..

 

dear brother please continue, i will post my rejoinders after your goodself have completed.

 

jai sri ram

 

 

Aug 11

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

Once we have proved that it is necessarily true that this series of events has a beginning, then, it must also be that before this beginning there were no series of events (defined as – anything with a beginning). If someone claimed otherwise, then they would end up with the same contradiction (saying that infinity came to an end).

 

Rather, there must be a Creator that gave the series of events existence, since it was nonexistent before it began. Moreover, since it is impossible for there to be any events before the existence of this series, then it must also be that the Creator is not attributed with events, i.e. with any attribute or action that has a beginning. This again means that the Creator does not resemble His creation, since all created attributes must have a beginning. Actually, having a beginning and being a creation is the same thing. This is because to create is to bring into existence, and everything with a beginning must have been brought into existence.

 

We know from the above, by mathematical precision and logical necessity, that the Creator exists and does not resemble His creation. From the fact that the world has a beginning, we have proven that it must have a creator. The name of this creator is Allah in Arabic. If someone asks, “Who created Allah?” we say Allah does not have a creator, and does not need one as He has no beginning. If someone then asks, “how can you accept that Allah has no beginning, while you do not accept that the world has no beginning?” The answer is that we have shown that the world has a beginning based on the fact that it changes (changes are events). We do not believe, however, that Allah changes. Rather, we believe He is One, and doesn’t change and has no beginning.

 

The fact that Allah does not resemble His creation can also be known by saying that since God’s existence must be (as shown above), then it cannot also be merely possible (since “must be” and “possible” are incompatible meanings – something cannot be both a must and a possibility at the same time). Therefore, He must be clear of any attribute that belongs to the possible category of things. For example, weakness, limits, boundaries and needs are attributes that may or may not have existence; their existence depends on them being created; their existence is a possibility, not a must. They need a Creator to specify their limits. We know that we need a Creator, because we know that our own attributes need specification. We know they need specification because they have limits, and limits must be specified. For example, if you pointed at a table in a room and said, “Who made it in that shape?” and someone answered, “No one, it is just there like that eternally!” Would you accept this? Of course not, because we know anything limited needs someone to specify it.

 

According to the proofs above, Allah is not attributed with limits, since He is not created. We can also safely conclude that Allah has a Will to specify events, and unlimited Power to create them. We can also conclude that He must have knowledge, because specification without knowledge is impossible. It is now easy to see also, that no event can take place without Him willing it. All of this is according to the teachings of Islam, and what all prophets taught.

 

If someone asked: If an event can be defined as an action that has a beginning and giving a series of events existence is an action with a beginning (and if it’s not, then what is it?), then how can one rationally conclude, based on the logic presented above, that the Creator is not attributed with events?

The answer to this is that I did not define events as actions having a beginning, but as “anything that has a beginning.” Actions may have a beginning, namely the actions of creation – as they all share this resemblance, or they may not, namely the actions of Allah.

 

Allah does not resemble His creation, so He is not an event or attributed with events. This is because to “create” is to “bring into existence,” and all events are therefore by definition created. As Allah’s attributes are not creations, they are not events.

 

 

Note that the actions of Allah Himself are not describable, as they are actions not bounded by time. They are actions without a how (bilaa kayf). Our lack of understanding is not a problem for the argument presented, because we have already shown, and we can definitively understand, that no action of Allah has a beginning. Then we stop there, and do not delve on it, or say “how?” There are things in creation that are beyond our grasp, such as the pattern of quarks, so what about the Creator, who does not resemble anything?

 

Last but not least, in attempt to confuse, or out of confusion some may ask: “What if the world’s existence is cyclical?” Our answer to this is that cycles are still one cycle one after another, so they are events. Some may also ask, in an attempt to confuse: “Before Allah created this series of events, was He able to create another series or not?” Our answer to this is that this is a nonsensical question, because what we established was that there must be an event that is first, regardless of the number of series, or the number of worlds preceding the current one. We also established that Allah’s actions are not events, so they are not described with a “before.”

 

 

 

Please tell me if you need any clarifications before I move on to the implications of the above proof.

 

 

 

Aug 11

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram….

 

please proceed

 

 

 

Aug 15

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

From the above proof we know that Allah necessarily exists (although His existence is indescribably different from anything else’s existence) and is uncreated.

 

He has attributes which are also uncreated. The relationship between Allah and His attributes is something that the human being neither knows nor should be bothered with. This is because what we know with certainty is that

1. He has those attributes (as established in the proof)

2. Some things are beyond our comprehension

 

His attributes are neither a part of Him nor separate from Him.

 

A somewhat loose analogy to this situation may be that of a chemist. He knows with certainty that hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water. He can test this in his lab. But this does not mean that he can understand the atom or how this reaction actually takes place.

 

It should be understood that it is not an imperfection in Allah’s Creation that they cannot fully comprehend Him. Instead, this is because if we did understand everything then we would be up against the absurdity that Allah is limited i.e. if we knew everything about Him it would imply that He has a limited nature which can be comprehended by our limited minds.

 

One more thing that I want to clarify is that it is impossible for Allah or his attributes to change. This is because if they change it would imply that they were created – a direct contradiction to our conclusion that they are uncreated. So not even Allah can change His attributes or stop being Himself (i.e. God), not because He doesn’t have the power to do so but because such a thing is a verbal absurdity and does not mean anything.

 

If one understands the argument presented then it is impossible for him to believe that there is such a thing as incarnation because that would imply that God Almighty changed from whatever He was to a man. A man by definition is a created being with limitations. He has a height, a color, two hands, a nose and all these attributes of man require specification. For them to be specified implies them being created. And anything created cannot be the Creator.

 

So now you tell me that if this is the background I have, then how I can ever think of worshipping a man or an idol or any other created thing. Is it not an insult to the all powerful Creator that instead of being thankful to Him for all that He has given me I am offering my obeisance to something He created and which has no power of its own?

 

I know that the one who created me and every other thing is all-Hearing and all-Seeing and thus no matter where I am, if I call upon Him I know He hears my prayers. Do I then need anything as an intermediary between me and Him?

 

If one asserts that he will believe in God in the way he likes, giving Him any image or form then I feel that such a person should reconsider his position. How can someone take his Creator so lightly as if He deserves no respect?

 

But on the other hand if someone agrees with all that I have written then he is a Muslim no matter what label he has on top. A Muslim means someone who submits to the will of Almighty Allah. If you think of God in the same way and are willing to submit to Him you are a Muslim.

 

 

Aug 19

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…

 

I have gone through all your messages, and have found them to be interesting but not convincing. You say that god and his creation are different and god effected the series of a chain of events which lead to the present world, I simply have to ask you that how does that implies that if it is to be believed that god started these series of events then his creation is not his own representation, did god actually and carefully seperated himself from his creation..?? was god very adamant to not to be represented by his creation..?? was god full of ego.?? was god very pruod to be god..?? please explain why would god want to do so..?? just why..?? you say that worshipping a human or an idol is wrong and it amounts to showing disrespect to the almighty. But I have my grave misgivings on this statement of yours, on the contrary it is people who have always projected god as a remote entity who are showing utmost disrespect to god. It is like delimiting the limitless.

 

It is like confining the almighty to one corner of the universe or the space and projecting him to be so unaccessible and remote as a snobish political leader. It would be like you say that the FBI or the government of USA cannot arrest a big time criminal, here by saying so so you are simply limiting the vast powers of the government and its agencies. Dear brother we as humans have no authority to guage or measure the nature and the limits of the limitless gods. What actually such people have done is that they have put the almighty under the microscope and have commented on him, whereas they donot even know what is going to happen the very next minuite, this is taking the almighty so loosely and easily that he can be discussed over the breakfast table, this is absolute disrespect to god, not the one who says that HE is everywhere, in everything. The one who says that he is in everything and everything is he, issues such statements out of boundless love and effection, out of absolute surrender.

People should try their best not to comment on god and his attributes, as if they know him from ages. Stop the practrice of limiting him, please try to understand how disrespectfull it is..!!!! When we donot know what god is all about….just percieve that he is in everything and is everything.

 

We as ordinary individuals come in this world for a few decades and live our lives like normal people, eat, drink, procreate, go to parties, amuse oursevles in different ways etc etc.. and then we try to decipher the scriptures and commenton soemthing that is the very basis of this and many other universes, such statements are the product of ego and the preponderence of a single idea, no matter what happens such habits are seldom corrected.

This is the reason that it is forbidden in our scriptures to comment on god, SRI RAM, untill we have slogged for our share of yoga, after a few sessions, days, months, years and even decades (depends on the individual), the influx of the divine cosmic pran energy alters the perception of the devotee and he then starts to understand what god is all about.

 

Please know that there is no difference between you and the one you worship, it is just a matter of time, and if you are lucky you may realise it someday, it is none other tha you who created and owns the entire universal show, the viel of ignorance and ego has forced you to think otherwise.

 

If god is diiferent from us or something very remote then please search the quran and tell me the exact location, in terms of distance, direction, time taken to reach etc etc.

 

But let me tell you that what the quran says is also what the hindu scriptures say, that he is everywhere, now if he is everywhere then hwo can you limit him.??

 

Now if he is verywhere then is he not in your body..?? is he not in very sheath of your skin..?? is he not in every atom of your body..?? so then will it be false to say that you are made of god..?? and you are god himself.

 

Dont go by what the verse of the quran or any other holy book have to tell us,on the very face of it, there are very deep meanings of the verses of which can only be comprehended by drawing in huge amounts of pranic energy, and meditaitng on them. It doesnt matter which way you do that, but the better practice is yoga.

 

Otherwise we will just continue to argue like this, which would indeed be a futile exercise.

 

 

 

Aug 23

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

Most of the questions that you have raised have been answered in the proof. I would, however, state them once more for your convenience. But before that please clarify the following- you agree that before the cosmos came into existence God did exist. But what do you believe happened after the act of creation? Do you believe that God is still present as He was before, along with this Creation (which in this case would be a part of Him as per your asseveration) or do you believe that He changed from whatever He was into this Creation and so does not exist anymore in the way He existed before creating this universe?

 

 

 

Aug 23

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…

 

yess god still exists the way he did before the creation of the universe and infact he only is what we see, its just that its in a diferent form

 

 

 

Aug 24

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

You say the proof wasn’t convincing. I am a little surprised to hear that. Of all the non-Muslims with whom I have shared this proof I have always got a nodding, “yes you are right,” and then…. nothing. As if I had told them something very ordinary, that has no implications. But never has someone said it doesn’t prove the point.

 

In any case, I am restating the reason why I feel it’s impossible for God to actually physically manifest Himself as anything that we see in this universe.

 

Dear brother, God is not ‘what you are’, it’s ‘who you are’. What I mean by that is that divinity is not like a coat that you wear and which you can put off and give to anybody else or like a job in the office which can be given to different people.

 

If someone is divine he has to be so since ever and for ever. You cannot start being divine. So there is no such thing as God giving you a little bit of divinity. It’s a verbal absurdity.

 

I don’t understand why it must be on account of adamance that the creator is distinct from His creation. Do you mean that God can only be close to His creation if He is physically present with them? Why do you think that God cannot be separate from His creation? Can He not love them and provide for them without being a part of them? In fact to have a ‘part’ means having a partner. We Muslims do not ascribe partners to God.

 

I actually do not understand what you mean by saying that God and His creation are the same because the two are so obviously dissimilar. God is all-knowing and can create anything from nothing by merely willing to do so. None of His creation has that ability.

God doesn’t require to eat or to sleep but I do. How then can I be God?

 

In fact to say that God’s creation is a part of His being is a statement which entails many difficulties. If you say that God’s creation is the same as Him then how can you account for the events that take place in the world? I have shown in the proof that from logical necessity the Creator doesn’t change. But if the universe is a part of God then changes in it imply changes in God. This goes against our logical conclusion. If you have a problem with the conclusion please tell me where my reasoning went wrong. I am ready to change my opinion if you point out a flaw.

 

To say that God is represented by His creation is an ambiguous statement. If you construe it to mean that the artistry in this Creation bears witness to the excellence of its Creator and represents the outcome of His eternal power and matchless knowledge then I am with you but if mean something like – His creation is somehow the same as Him then how can you escape the fact that there are wicked people in the world who rape, rob, and cheat. How is all this not attributed to the exalted Creator?

 

If God is some form of ancient energy and the universe is its condensed form then it implies that God is someone that can change because energy can be converted from one form to another. However, I have shown that anything that changes cannot be God.

 

I couldn’t understand what you meant by the example of the FBI.

 

You ask me if God is full of ego or is proud to be God, but ignore an implication of your own assertion. When you say that the veil of ignorance and ego has made all of us such that we cannot grasp the reality then does that not imply that God is ignorant and egoistical? After all even such ignorant people are gods.

 

You go on to say that we as humans have no right to gauge the limitless gods. In this statement it appears that humans are different than God (contrary to what you have been saying) and that there are many gods. If we are God then we should have every right to assess ourselves.

 

I do not comment on Almighty Allah or His attributes because I claim to know everything about Him. In fact I have already said that there are things related to God for which we do not have answers. But Allah describes Himself as Az-Zaahir which means, “The One Who’s Existence is Obvious by Proofs.” It is clear then, that these fundamental beliefs can all be proven correct with certainty.

 

If I say that God is not everywhere I am in no way limiting Him. I am, in fact glorifying Him because He is too exalted to be in lowly places. On the face of it, it sounds nice to say that God is everywhere but just think about it. Is God inside the toilet? Is He inside the HIV virus? No, of course not.

 

I ask you to read once more what I wrote regarding Islam’s stand on the omnipresence of Allah earlier. If you want to make a straw man Muslim and beat him down you can only do that with someone who has not read the Quran. I have read my Holy book and do not know where it says that Allah is physically everywhere. Please provide a reference.

 

There is a narration ascribed to the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in which we are told that the universe compared to the chair of Allah is like a ring in the desert and the chair compared to the throne of Allah is again like a ring in the desert. So, Muslims do not limit God by saying that He not in this universe. On the contrary we say that this universe is too insignificant a place in front of Allah. He is self-sufficient and does not need space or time to exist.

 

Statements like – “…If god is diiferent from us or something very remote then please search the quran and tell me the exact location, in terms of distance, direction, time taken to reach etc etc. ….” indicate the failure to conceive existence beyond material existence, and drawing analogies between the Creator and the created. It is also a failure to realize the amazing detail and complexity of creation, which brings one to the natural conclusion that it’s Creator cannot be subject to any limits. This is what Muslims mean when they say “subhan-Allah”, i.e. Allah is clear of non-befitting attributes, i.e. flaws or weaknesses.

 

 

 

Aug 26

Rish.Rocks:

1. jai sri ram….

 

dear brother I have once again read your recent messeges carefully, and once again I am of the view that these point of argument do not shed light on the truth.

 

I will hereby give a point by point counter argument.

 

2. Dear brother, God is not ‘what you are’, it’s ‘who you are’. What I mean by that is that divinity is not like a coat that you wear and which you can put off and give to anybody else or like a job in the office which can be given to different people.If someone is divine he has to be so since ever and for ever. You cannot start being divine. So there is no such thing as God giving you a little bit of divinity. It’s a verbal absurdity.

On this point I would like to say that this statement of your’s shows that you have no knowledge of spirituality. It is infact in this very way that spiritual progress takes place within a disciple. You say that it is not coat that can be given to anyone else but let me tell you that it is infact tranferrable more quickly than you can ever think off. Just like you can give your job or your coat to anyone.
Please read your own texts(of islamic sufism) carefully and then you will better understand what I am talking about. In these islamic text of sufism it is clearly sai

 

 

 

 

 

Now the second part of your above shown messege is also denied right away, now you say that nobody can be start being divine, its infact very baseless comment because a new sufi disciple who knows nothing but only has the strong will tou be saint, is asked to perform spiritual rituals, yoga or dhikr(incase of muslims) and then he starts to recieve the spiritual wealth(cosmic life energy or pran) throug his spiritual order, and then his way and style of living changes he finds it very difficult to tell lies, he cannot see anyone in distress or pain.
This is nothing but the advent of divinity as one inches forward towards realising his true self that he himself is the creator, and one more thing is worth mentioning here is that like you have said gods doesnt need to sleep, eat or procreate etc than you must also know that when a new disciple advances in his spiritual pursuits than the more he advances the little he can do without food and water, so what does this symptom point at.

 

brother, 1st paragraph of point number 2 to has clipped off from the end….I mean to say that in your texts of islamic sufism it has been clearly mentioned that, mere with a gaze, a true master(kamil murshid) can take(make him reach) a disciple to the highest spiritual station more quickly than the time taken to blink an eye lid.

 

 

 

 

 

3. I don’t understand why it must be on account of adamance that the creator is distinct from His creation. Do you mean that God can only be close to His creation if He is physically present with them? Why do you think that God cannot be separate from His creation? Can He not love them and provide for them without being a part of them? In fact to have a ‘part’ means having a partner. We Muslims do not ascribe partners to God.I actually do not understand what you mean by saying that God and His creation are the same because the two are so obviously dissimilar. God is all-knowing and can create anything from nothing by merely willing to do so. None of His creation has that ability.
God doesn’t require to eat or to sleep but I do. How then can I be God?

my point: you ask me that why should it be on account of adamance to that the god is distinct from his creation…well I have to ask that why not..???

 

 

 

 

 

has god himself said that I will not be present in the human body, or that I will not be present in the log of wood although I will be present in the jungle. God doesnt says NO to anything, but I donot understand why some people are hell bent to limit god. I just ask you to just tell me one good reason that god is distinct from his creation.??? you say that the god doesnt change, yess i also agree with this statement but the god present himslef in different from, this is my take, it would be like when you were born , you were naked that was your true form, but then when you grew up gradually you appeared in different attires, sometimes dressed for the party, sometime for the beach, sometimes for a funeral etc etc. So its the same in case of god I agree that god or the ancient energy in reality has no shape or size, but all I am saying is that it keeps appearing in different shapes and sizes.

 

There is just no reason at all that god will deliberately keep himself aloof from his creation, and there are plenty to prove otherwise, one of them being that he is all pervasive and omnipresent, he inhabits every particle and every particle is he, he is limitless, boundless the most mercifull.If one asks any muslim, that where is god, pat comes the reply that he is everywhere, but not in your body, not in this plant, not in my body, not in lowly places etc etc.

Although he is omnipresent( present everywhere simultaneously ) but he cannot be found in any or all the articles that are visible in this world, that means because no space is visible to you in a table or a human body or a plant then it should be concluded that god cannot exist here and only open spaces should be understood to be the dwelling place of god…what a verbal absurdity this is..in this case you must say that he is omnipresent but with limitation, but look at this one, thats another contradiction.

 

 

 

 

 

when you say that god and his creation are disimilar then please understand that our scriptures say that a normal human being is in a sleeping state and what ever he sees is just a dream which is not true and then the questio arises that when does a person is considered to be awake..?? the answer is: when he indulges in yoga and is able to shed his ego and ignorance(there are many technical details pertaing to this development in the human body), then he is not sleeping any more and realises the truth that he and his creator are one, he starts feeling oneness among all the other things. To you they would appear to be very distinct because you are right now in sleeping state, you may compose good poems , you may be the brain behind some of the most important inventions of the millenium but still you are sleeping(susupta awastha in sanskrit), and people live all their lives like this only and just die.

 

when u say that god is all knowing and can create anything out of nothing…here i dont dispute this statement the only thing I say that their is no reason that why god would keep himself deliberately aloof from his creation.

The reasoning that you have given regarding atrributes of god are entertaining and interesting but then you have at the same time agrees that there are some things that human beings have not understood, so this is the actual story that you have not understood anything, how can you draw out anologies about the limitless god when you dont even know what is going to happen the very next minute, look how lossely you take him, yes I agree that the your style and narration are exceptionally good but this doent mean that what ever you say makes it a gospel truth, anybody can be coaxed to say YESS to your assertions, but not me..!!!

 

 

 

 

 

4. your statement: In fact to say that God’s creation is a part of His being is a statement which entails many difficulties. If you say that God’s creation is the same as Him then how can you account for the events that take place in the world? I have shown in the proof that from logical necessity the Creator doesn’t change. But if the universe is a part of God then changes in it imply changes in God. This goes against our logical conclusion. If you have a problem with the conclusion please tell me where my reasoning went wrong. I am ready to change my opinion if you point out a flaw.here I would like to say that the form changes not core remains the same, like I will repeat the example that I had written earlier that when you were born you were naked, a little baby weighing a few kilos but now that you have grown your form has changed in many ways, but will it be right to say that the baby that was born that day(i dont know your birthday) was different entity than the present Yusuf.

 

 

 

 

 

So your heart your lungs and your organs are all the same but your external appearance has completely changed, if your dad shows your first photograph when you were just a few hours old to anyone now and ask them to indentify the baby’s present day appearance from a group of people surely everyone would make mistakes. Similarly god is the same but the shape size and all the external appearances for that matter have changed. This is what appears to the sleeping human beings, but when they arise from this ignorance the real form of everything is revealed to them.

 

5. your statement: His creation is somehow the same as Him then how can you escape the fact that there are wicked people in the world who rape, rob, and cheat. How is all this not attributed to the exalted Creator?Yess surely the people who rape, rob and cheat are also made up of the same god, these are social wrongs, acts of societal deviance but not divinely defined crimes, in no spiritual book no modern day crime has been defined. Had these been divinely outlayed acts of contempt, then no cheater would have flourished, no rapist would have escaped the divine retribution, but we all have seen that some are reprimanded and some are aloowed to go scot free. But here you would again point out that if these acts have nothing to do with divinity then human beings and god are different. All these acts are also of god, by god but thses acts have not been defined because god knows no sense of happiness because he is always happy, he is never sad, he knows no grief or fear.

 

 

 

 

 

Now with this statement again you will try to corner me that when I myself say that god has no sense of happiness then how can I say that god can incarnate in flesh and blood, where as SRI KRISHNA and SRI RAM have also exhibited emotion of grief and happiness, but here lets make no mistake that only common people who donot understand spirituality say so that SRI RAM fought a war etc etc, this he says only because it has seemed so to him, its not his mistake he says what he has seen or taught but the reality is far from what common people think or believe, I donot dispute that he did not fought a war but there is more than meets the eye, which only yogis and saints can comprehend.The highly emotive actions like anger, deep sorrow, extreme happiness have deep spiritual significance, I will not go into those technical details right now.

 

 

 

 

 

6. You go on to say that we as humans have no right to gauge the limitless gods. In this statement it appears that humans are different than God (contrary to what you have been saying) and that there are many gods. If we are God then we should have every right to assess ourselves.Dear brother what I mean here by humans is the present state of todays’ normal human beings, like we encounter in the bank, or the gas station, or the post office. Every common individual is in a deep sleep and whatever we see while sleeping is a dream which is not real. when we get to awake from this slumber then we know everything in its true sense and then whatever we see in not a dream but is the ultimate truth. To say that i my words mean that humansare different from god would be like forcefully hijacking my words for the sake of argument, an ignorant man has the same divinity residing in himself like any of the highly accomplished saints but the difference here is the same as between an unpolished,uncut diamond and otherwi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aug 28

Rish.Rocks:

 

7. your statement: If I say that God is not everywhere I am in no way limiting Him. I am, in fact glorifying Him because He is too exalted to be in lowly places. On the face of it, it sounds nice to say that God is everywhere but just think about it. Is God inside the toilet? Is He inside the HIV virus? No, of course not.

 

here you are simply limiting god by saying that he not everywhere, you are attempting to put brakes on the lords movement and you are simply restricting him. U are simply disregarding the all pervasiveness of the lord. I donot know how this statement of your’s should be read in the honour of the lord. This could be an appropriate way for a crazy fan for defining his favourite Hollywood star but this isn’t appropriate at all to define the omnipresent god, rather its complete disrespect. Its like defining and deliberately understanding his presence according to your own whims and fancies.

 

See how you equate god’s likes and dislikes so lightly as saying that god cannot be at lowly places, it means the god that you are talking about also discriminates like we ignorant sleeping humans do, is this the way the lord should be addressed and defined..?? does he also thinks the same way as we do..?? this is a toilet i will not go in there.?? This is a dirty virus I must not even be around it.

Please carefully examine what you have said and how your own statements have ascrined god a partner…

 

Firstly you say that god is not inside a toilet and god is not inside an HIV virus, then this menas that god considers these things or places ugly and dirty like we do….so it would alos not be wrong to say that since god doesnt wants to stay at such lowly dirty places then he is not the creator of these things(places and organism) and there must be a parrallel power who creates such so called ugly dirty things, and he is also as powerfull, if not more, and is continously thriving since ages.

 

And if god according to your assertions percieves these to be dirty and lowly then why he is not able to eliminate these so called dirty things from this world, is he so powerless that he has no remedy but to cope up with ( or co-exist ) with HIV virus and other so called dirty, ugly things. Or if he has been trying to remove these thingsfrom the universe then there must be a constant struggle between god and the other parallel power that keeps all the ugly things alive. Or if we should understand that only god has created the HIV virus or other dirty creatures, then it should also be understood from your reasoning that god created them and then he maintained a safe distance from the toilet or the virus, and would only enter them when the need be. How baseless and absurd are these ideas, how disrespectfull you have been all this while to the ultimate creator, you should ponder over your ideas a thousand times, put them under serious reconsideraton.

 

Your position is like that of a blindfolded enthusiastic man who wants to measure the entire length and breadth of the mighty pacific ocean with a match stick, he puts the match stick in the water and takes it out and declares that he has now got a fair bit of idea of the length and depth and breadth of the ocean only by the amount of water that remains on the match stick. Thereby confining himself and others in darkness.

 

In one of your previous messeges you have said that when god answer all my prayers and sees me and listensto me all the time then why is there a need a to worship a man or a statue etc…

 

I want to tell you onething that your idea that god answers all your prayers is absolutely false and frivilous and without any merit……just tell me….if u ask god that transport me to my friend Rish in Dehi within no time..will it happen..?? If u ask god to make u invisiblefor a day…then will it happen.?? If u ask god that empower me such so that who ever talks to me even for a while, becomes my disciple..will it happen..? If u ask god free you from hunger and thirst wil it happen..?? can u elevate any one from suffering..?? all the answers to these questions would be a big NO, then how can u say that god answers your prayers has to be figured out.

 

You call god with pronoun HE, why not SHE or IT, IT should be the more appropriate since he is nothing, but u call him he since somewhere in your psyche u also know that he is a all powerfull father(male) figure. According to you God sees, hears, rewards according to ones good or bad deeds, he even discriminates, he wishes, he creates but cannot incarnate in flesh and blood…..isnt that a bundle of goof ups..!!!!

 

If you want to look at it at another way, which I know would be your most prefereed way, of applying logical reasoning, then we all know that god created the world and has been creating different objects , so the one who can create must be a living entity so god must be living and every living being must have a body and since he has been making all sorts objects ranging from the atomic bomb to the medieval horsecarts, to the latest stylish mobile phones then it would not be wrong to say that gods choice and preference in some field has changed entirely…………………………

 

I can write more and more bu whats I am trying to show here is that if we start developing ideas on god almighty and his activities by applying our logical reasoning then we would only grop in the dark(the match stick story).

 

8. your statement…..Statements like – “…If god is diiferent from us or something very remote then please search the quran and tell me the exact location, in terms of distance, direction, time taken to reach etc etc. ….” indicate the failure to conceive existence beyond material existence, and drawing analogies between the Creator and the created. It is also a failure to realize the amazing detail and complexity of creation, which brings one to the natural conclusion that it’s Creator cannot be subject to any limits. This is what Muslims mean when they say “subhan-Allah”, i.e. Allah is clear of non-befitting attributes, i.e. flaws or weaknesses.

 

 

It only shows your frustrations because you have been confronted with a simple question which you are not able to answer. You may call me anyhting, I dont mind, after all we live in democratic society, but my inquisitiveness is intact, and then you only call god different from your self then only you should be giving me the answer.

 

I am open to recieve any surprises, surprise me hard…..I bet you cannot, tell me something that strikes deep in my heart, that drives me to think about it again and again. Dont give me long baseless stories.

 

Give me something that I can experience right away, like I have to give, the yoga, anyone who has done it, has only praises for our religion, millions of patients have been cured..

 

Dear brother lastly I want to submit, that you seem to be even elder to my father, therfore if I have unintentionally hurt you in any way(which indeed I have never intended) then I kneel down and touch your feet in traditional hindu style and beg for forgiveness.

 

jai sri ram

jai sri ram

jai sri ram

 

 

 

 

Aug 29

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

 

I feel that this dialog of ours has transformed into more of a debate. Sheikh Yusuf once said that debates produce a lot of heat but no light. And after this encounter I agree with him completely.

I wanted to know about your beliefs and that I have done. Moreover, I have started to lose interest in communicating any further. I think that you are having a problem understanding what I have written because all that you ask me to answer has already been addressed. If you took the time to read and actually thought about what you are saying, clarifying your definitions, and so on, you would find you have very little to hold on to in your claims.

 

Please don’t think that my purpose of sharing the proof was to make a bunch of witty statements and try to prove that I am so smart. I am totally allergic to that sort of stuff. All I wanted was to let you know that we have a logical basis to our beliefs, as many people tend to think of religion and logic as incompatible. You are free to make your own conclusions and I know that I have no right to force you. I believe that the truth of the matter shall be made absolutely clear on the Last Day.

 

I am discontinuing this discussion but would just like to quickly summarize my earnest objections.

 

1. If all is God and God is all, then human beings too are God. I know enough about myself to know at an intuitive level that I am not God. Not even close. This is enough proof for me.

 

2. If this is something to be realized by the help of yogic exercises even then there is a problem with the claim. If God does not have limited knowledge and abilities, why would we have to grow in knowledge      if we are God? Why would we even have to come to the conclusion that we are divine? If we are unlimited, why are we so limited that we do not always realize that we are unlimited?

 

3. We are told that the concepts cannot be adequately comprehended apart from one’s personal experience of them, but the fact is that reality is logical. To argue that logic does not apply to reality would be self-defeating, because one cannot make the claim without using logic, for e.g. the very act of saying that God is beyond logic is a logical statement about Him. How can one make a logical statement about someone who is beyond logic? Reality IS logical, and there are distinctions in our world. I am not you, and you are not me. Common sense tells me that as we converse. If you feel otherwise then all I can say is that you have your opinion and I will have mine.

 

You may reply to the above if you feel like doing so but I won’t be answering back. I only want you to think about it.

I am making our correspondence available online at http://www.interfaithdialog.wordpress.com

 

In the end I want to make a request. You asked me to read the Autobiography, which I did. Now I ask you to please read the Holy Quran. Any good translation would do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jan 9

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram..

brother hope you are in best of your healths and spirits…

jai sri ram

Jan 13

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram

yess did send u a scrap but then i deleted it for some reason.

yess dear brother i am again ready for it but let me tell u that its not that I have not understood what u have said, its only that, I dont ascribe your ideas any merit if things are to be viewed from the principles of spirituality. Otherwise logically your idea is fine, its like if i climb the roof top of my house and somebody(an ordinary person) questtions me that how far can u see?? then I would answer upto the horizon only, logically or to be more precise biologically, yes this is the limit. By this answer the man will accpet it without any protest but if I give him the answer that I can see upto america then if would rubbish my claims and call me a fool. So brother the point I am trying to make is tht spiritually things take a very different dimension, and to decipher the secrets of this universe we must frist develop spiritual understanding. Logically your idea is correct but this is not the case in reality. yess verily a

 

brother in order to understand the truth you must first shed all your religious prejudice and try to cultivate a spiritual bent of mind, that is, independent of any religious affiliation, which would then gradually be able to sense things spiritually. I have nothing much to say other than what I have already said during our previous discussion.

 

 

Jan 13

Rish.Rocks:

to u a moble phone would appear finite, but is it really so??? u would say that u can destroy the mobile phone by burning it into shes, but just think over, where does the smoke and the ashes go, they go to their parent source from where they originated that god, SRI RAM, ource from where they originated, that is in this world nothing is finite, everything is infinite its just that matter changes form, thats it.

jai sri ram

jai sri ram

 

 

Jan 15

 

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother
The way I see your views the implication seems to be that being logical would not guide a person to the truth and that there is some different kind of reasoning (which may not necessarily be logical) that is required to grasp the truth. Also you seem to say that such spiritual capability cannot be obtained unless we shed our religious identity and we develop a spiritual bent of mind. Also, you agree with me if logical considerations are made but due to your own personal experience of something occult or your strong belief in it do not give my ideas any merit. Please first tell me if I understood you properly?
I felt that you are confusing between science and logic. Science aims to discover empirical facts about the world and the laws of nature. These are not the concerns of logic. However, science does involve logic, since we need logic to test our theories and check whether they are consistent. Brother, from a scientific point of view, you would surely not be able to see up to America by standing on your rooftop but logically speaking it is not impossible to assume that you might have some means of doing so. The only thing that is needed is to test this theory of yours on the basis of logic.
Your example of the mobile phone is somewhat unclear to me. What has the conclusion that we cannot destroy a mobile phone by burning it to ashes have to do with it being infinite.

Jan 29

Yusuf Estes:

Brother, it seems that you haven’t got the chance to see your scrapbook for the past many days. I wanted to let you know that I have been eagerly waiting for your response. Regards

 

 

 

Feb 2

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram..

brother i am really very sorry for not having replied your msgs….as my computer was not working at all and i had now got it repaired and will post my responses within a day or two.

warm regards.
jai sri ram

Feb 3

 

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…

dear brother to understand spiritual phenomenons you frist need to cultivtae spiritual understanding which defies all logical explanation…by this I mean a person’s intellect is carved out by his family and his immediated society, his peer group etc and then in the child’s formative years whatever is then fed into his mind takes a permanent seat and his whole life and his understanding of everything that he encounters in his day today life comes from that foundation, the very basis on which his entire personality rests.

 

this thing also applies to all the spiritual things that he encounters, and as he is completly rooted to the tutelege he had in his formative years, he then views every spiritual thing from the same perspective, which in turn never lets him see the truth. So to develop spiritual understanding we need to be completely uprooted with whatever we were taught by our family and society and let the truth descend on to ourselves freely. Well its actually a herculean task to perform because many such things as self guilt and fear of blasphemy donot permit the individual to free one self from the clutches of falsehood. And also I would like to point out one more thing is that this theory has universal application no matter what religion the indivudual belongs to, letting go all that we have learnt is really a very difficult task.

 

 

 

Feb 5

 

Rish.Rocks:

to understand something that has never been explained needs a great deal of internal struggle. Even when people try to cultivate such a thought, they cannot go far enough due feelings of self guilt of defying the so called principles that they were fed with in their formative years, also the fear of social otracisation and being publicly categorised as an infidel leads one to withdraw and remain in falsehood all through his life. This phenomenon has universal application, its within every religion and every society.

there is a famous chinese proverb…”first empty your cup, if u want the master to fill in new knowledge”, well I must also say that, its easy said then done.

Even hindus who dont understand yogic principles face such difficulties, but I have been very fortunate for not having to undergo any of these difficulties.

So, dear brother u contention is that if I say that a sofa is god then I am limiting the limitless and putting the infinite god in an finite category, and since god is limitless, the all powerfull and infinite, I am being disrespectfull and logically my idea cannot stand the test at all.

Well here I have reteriet what I had said in our earlier discussions, That u and i are not different and so goes that u, i and god are not different entities but we are the same in different forms and so also inlude the sofa in their.

U discuss this thing at a peer group party and under all likely hood u will be labled insane and stupid. Whereas you discuss this with some great, actually enlightened yogi or a sufi and he will add some more words of wisdom to it, perhaps some more detail and endorse it completely.

When u put even the mundane things of this world under the spiritual microscope, things take and assume absolutely different dimensions and definitions.

Suppose u are a science teacher in a school and one fine day u have to teach students about nuclear physics and the enormous power a nucleus can generate, and u point towards the desk and say that in this piece of wood there are numerous atoms and billions of nucleuses and electrona nd protons are revolving round the nucleus and they can generate such power that the whole world can be brought to an end, the students would not believe u at once.

they would even laugh at u and exclaim that our teacher has gone mad, this would surely happen because they donot understand the principles of nuclear physics, but once they start to understand the priciples of nuclear physics then they would not at all protest such explanations, as they will now be able to undertsand what their teahcer is talking about.

I will end with a verse from the holy geeta

Bhagavad geeta:
na tvEvAham jAtu nAsam na tvam nEmE janAdhipA: |
na chaiva na bhaviShyAma: sarvE vayamata: param ||
Meaning:
Sri Krishna Says: The ParamAtma(god) that is me , the jeevatma that is you and several other jeevatmas that are souls were never non-existent at any point of time in the past , neither will we become non-existent at any time in the future .( This is established from the authority of the scriptures.)”
“||Hare Krishna||”
“||Om Namah Shivaya||”

jai sri ram

 

Feb 7

 

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

To prevent this discussion from diverging away from the important issues I make a humble request to you (and at the same time remind my self) that your responses should be directly addressing the point I have raised in the previous scrap, and, of course, vice versa for me. So please first state whether you agree with me when I asked you if I understood you properly in your first scrap and then comment on my point regarding science and logic and lastly explain what you meant by the example of the mobile phone.

The only reason for my insistence to do so is to prevent this discussion from ending like the previous one. I know that you are a knowledgeable person who has a lot to say about his religion but I am also confident that you would not have any objection to my above mentioned proposal.

Feb 10

 

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram….

dear brother I am very sorry if my way of posting my responses has caused some discomfort to you.

in future I will post my responses as per your directions.

jai sri ram

jai sri ram…

brother you have understood me only partially, the problem seems to be the language constraint, as I believe the word “LOGIC” is posing a lot of problem, in India this term is loosely applied in day to day conversations, its like if I take a long route to some destination whereas a short route is also there then people here would say that this action of yours has no logic in it(like makes no sense).

So lets abandon the use of this word.

As for the logical consideration where I have admitted that your idea is correct is like, if u ask me is 2+2=4 correct and logical then I would surely say yes thats correct and logical.

but ask that to a yogi and he would give a diffrent expalnation.

why I say that u have to shed your religious identity is the fact that, unless u do that u cannot break the shell.

I cannot ascribe your ideas any merit because your ideas convey that they are product of a mind(s) that have no spiritual understanding.

Its like there are no atoms and nucleuses in that piece of wood and the question of the nucleuses being so powerfull doesnot arise, only because we cannot see them or feel them forces us to reject the whole idea of nuclear physics. But in modern formal education we are taught about them, but still cannot see or feel then in our class rooms, but then because we are slowly and gradually made to understand what it is we accept them.

by the idea of the mobile phone i only wanted to convey that matter changes form and it can never be destroyed in any manner. Even if u burn the phone into ashes, it is not destroyed, in the sense that it’s molecules and atoms have disintegreted and have now take some other form or shape and have gone back to it’s parent source from where it came that is SRI RAM or god.

at the end I would like to say that all that we see with our biological eyes is illusion and falsehood, so dont base your religious ideas on them, they would be nothing but illusions again.

please forgive me if my words have hurt your feelings.

jai sri ram

 

 

Feb 12

 

Yusuf Estes:

May peace be with you dear brother

I am using logic in the exact same sense as in the example of the short and long route that you quoted. Please explain how my usage of the word ‘logic’ differs from your understanding. Two and two always amounts to four (if we are talking of whole numbers) and nobody can claim otherwise. There is nothing that is to be explained in it. It is self evident. If you have an alternative explanation please present that as well.

 

I took up the religion of Islam only because it makes perfect sense to me and I invite you to show me one thing that is nonsensical in its teachings. To say that I have to shed my religious identity is too premature a statement to make if one has not pointed out an error in taking up that identity. So please tell me why I should do so and what is wrong in my identity. I will not take offense to any question of yours in this regard. So kindly ask what you may please.

 

What do you mean by spiritual understanding?

 

You give the analogy of developing spiritual understanding by the way a child comes to understand nuclear physics. But there is a flaw in your reasoning here. When we are taught nuclear physics we are supposed to follow logical principles but spirituality, according to you, need not be logical. How then can the two cases be compared? I see this as a false analogy.

 

If all I see with my biological eyes is an illusion then tell me how did you come to know the truth. Do you not use your biological eyes?

 

 

 

Feb 15

 

Rish.Rocks:

jai sri ram…

dear brother these messeges of yours have brought a big smile on my face, so big that the other person in my room has eagerly questioned the source of such big smile……..anyways..i think we are withering away from the purposefull discussion, something that we had intended for. I think u have not understood my reasoning properly and have taken my arguments a bit too personally.

Without any hesitation I wish to say that you are just not at all capable of understanding spirituality so all this discussion is a mere waste of time.

And to ask me to point out nonsensical teachings of Islam….so let me be very clear that the original Islam started by reverred prophet mohammed is not what u or the other muslims are following, u are following mere interpretations which best suits your imagination.

I can point out a billion plus illogical and pointless teachings of todays Islam, but that is not what I had intended in this discussion, so I would never do so.
And also it would not be out of place to mention here that Islam for many Hindus is just another form of worshipping BHAGWAN SHIV “the holy black stone inside the Kaba” and the words of quran are nothing but the words of Sri Ram in another language, so these reasons dissuade us to say anything against it anyways.

I have lost interest in this discussion as for all this while, u have not been able to understand even the basic tenets of spirituality.

lastly , since u have very confidently said that 2+2=4 and nobody can claim otherwise, so please search all your religious books and tell me spiritual significance of numbers that is 0(zero) and 1(one).

Your over confident claim that two and two is four and nobody can claim other wise, proves my point that u are strongly bound by what u have been taught and u cannot dare to think otherwise. Now dont ask me to prove how 2+2 can be something else than 4, because now I have clearly understood that u cannot comprehend spiritual principles, I am just throwing out a challenge to u to search in your spiritual books and give the spiritual significance of 0 and 1, try if u can. good luck.

jai sri ram

Feb 15

 

Yusuf Estes:

Dear brother

If only you could explain your views clearly I might have had a chance to understand. I do not know what to expect from this scrap of your. In any case I am still very much willing to continue the discussion.

you would do me a favor by defining spirituality first

I propose to continue this discussion on some on line forum as it seems we both have a lot of messaging to do. I am a member of uiforum.uaeforum.org
If you would like me to join any such forum of which you are a member let me know.