The following is a copy of the dialog that took place between a Muslim and a Hindu on the social networking site www.orkut.com
Before anybody accuses me of plagiarism I want to acknowledge that most of the things that I (the Muslim) wrote are either verbatim reproductions from lectures and speeches of various Islamic speakers or obtained from various Islamic websites. Also, I am not a scholar of Islam and do not claim to have expert knowledge. But I do have a good time assimilating it from diverse sources or as Sheikh Yusuf says-“get the hay down so the goats can eat it.”
Another thing I want to mention is that I do not know Sheikh Yusuf Estes personally. Our Hindu friend here has probably taken me to be him because of my profile name. However, if you visit my profile the name is Yusuf Estes Fan.
Jun 2
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
As is evident you are a follower of the Sanatan Dharma
I have a few queries regarding the concept of God in your religion
Since you are very fervently supporting it I feel you could help me out
Please let me know if you are willing to have a dialogue
Jun 2
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram brother……
i am delighted to read ur scrap….
thats fine i am ready for talks…please be free to put your queries to me.
thanks.
jai sri ram
Jun 3
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
Thanks for responding
In the very beginning I would like you to know that as muslims we are required to worship only one God without any partners.
How does Sanatan Dharma differ ?
Jun 3
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…..
dear brother thanks for your query….the answer is as follows….
The idea of one god is not disputed in sanatan dharm….god indeed is one and only…and therefore we also subscribe to the basic belief of god being onebut the difference is that we give it a shape according to our needs and imagination…
its ture that god has no partners so even we dont say or subscribe to the idea that god has partners…but at the same time….i will give you an example like: u in this pic are wearing a big beard and a cap but now if u change your look altogether then a child(ignorant hindus) might think that u are an all together different person but a grown up man(enlightened hindus) would say “that its the same yusuf in a different look”
in the begining when there was nothing and only god was there…..god created this universe..?? but no one ever explains what raw material did god use to create such vast universes and galaxies….the answer is given in the vedas…
it is that watever we see or touch is a condensed and altered form of that ancient energy whom we call god or allah….even muslims say that allah is everywhere…so it says all that allah inhabits and occupies everything, so it points out to just one thing that all the things wether animate or inanimate are made up of allah….i know it sounds wierd to many but this is the fact…….so does all the idols even u and me….but people often ask me that why then my sofa or my CD player answers to my prayer..??? so the answer is simple the viel of ignorance and ego has made all of us such that we cannot grasp the reality, and every other thing looks like an ordinary object…but when through yoga the viel of ego is slowly lifted then every object starts to show its true form…th
Jun 5
Yusuf Estes:
Peace be with you dear brother
Thanks for the reply, but I still have some questions regarding the following-
How is it that any shape and form can be attributed to God as per our own desires? After all God is, as we all agree, the Supreme Being- Exalted in honor and so, unless made permissible by Himself, can such ascriptions (which could also be denigrating to His glory) be justified?
By the example are you trying to say that all the different Deities (as mentioned in the Hindu mythology and as worshipped throughout households in India) are just different forms of the same God. If yes, I have a little more to ask.
I am glad to tell you that Islam too holds that in the beginning there was only God and then He created the universe, but we believe that for Him to create it no raw material was necessary. He can will things into existence from nothing.
Trying not to sound offensively self-assured I want to humbly correct you regarding Islam’s view on the omnipresence of Allah. Of course, Allah knows best but this is what I have understood.
Although many Muslims say that Allah is everywhere, they may not mean the same thing as others, who hold that God is permeating through the whole universe and is actually present in every atom, electron and so on. In Islam there is the one Creator and everything else is His creation What Islam teaches is that the knowledge of God is everywhere, the seeing of God is everywhere, the hearing of God is everywhere, the love, mercy and forgiveness of God is everywhere but He isn’t actually as a physical being present in the universe. He is outside His creation, above the heavens (which is the phrase we use).
Now the counter-argument would be that by putting God above the heavens we are assigning Him a place and so limiting Him within space. But we say that to say God is everywhere is to put Him in a place because you have put Him inside His creation- within the constraints of time, space etc. Saying that God is beyond His creation does not put him in some location because ‘location’ came into existence with creation.
Please forgive me if my views seem to belittle any belief of the Sanatan Dharma. I only intend to share ideas in a peaceful way.
Jun 5
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram….
dear brother i would like to draw your attention to one basic fact of yoga….it is that we the present humans only have about 2% of our mental faculties activated, and the rest 98% remains dormant all through our life, this fact has also been testified in medical science.
now wat happens to the rest of the 98% of our brain is that it remains dormant, and the only way to awaken(in yoga we would prefer to say energise) it we will have to draw in huge amounts of pranic energy or prana(in sanskrit) also known as faiz(urdu) and barakka(in arabic)… all this is attained by doing dhikrs and practicing other form of yoga and meditation….i il not go in those details at this moment.
so dear brother u and me and our other fellow members of the society will not and cannot comprehend the real essence of god or allah, the hindus believe this way because they have been taught this way and the muslims believe that way because they have been taught that way….every common man is spiritually locked and when the lock is opened he realises that that their is nothing else other than god and that he too is a part of god and god himself.
so with that amount of intellegence(2%) man only percieves god to be unreachable, absolutely remote and something alien, this thing happens with hindus also they worship different deities but never dare to be one with them because they think that it is impossible or something very difficult,but when a yoga practitioneror saint energises the dormant areas of the his brain then he slowly realises that there is nothing in this world except god or SRI RAM/ allah, he finds himself and other things merging in the supreme being, from where they originated.
man is lik
Jun 9
Yusuf Estes:
Peace be with you dear brother
Thanks again for replying and bearing with me
Brother, even if the spiritually locked man is able to use only 2% of his intelligence and the rest is to be unlocked through meditation practices I feel that there must be other ways to find the Truth and only if all these different ways lead you to the same ideology/way of life/religion would one be absolutely satisfied about it. Also, I feel, since it is the Creator who has endowed us with the capability of reasoning so that we can judge between different opinions, if we after removing all personal bias and prejudice apply sound reasoning to any ideology we can surely arrive at the right conclusion even without the use of any mystical exercise. Your comments….
If you agree with what I just wrote then I request you to kindly explain the rationale behind the belief regarding God Almighty taking a human form and coming down on this earth as a man.
Jun 9
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram….
dear respected brother first let me tell you that you write really good english…i have seldom seen muslims having good command over the language..
dear brother like you have said that there must be other ways to find the truth…i agree with this statement of yours but at the same time i would to point out that we should also appreciate the fact that all the visible different forms of worship bring about psyco-physiological changes based on the same principles……..the various forms of worship vary in their speed(the fast reacting ones for the advanced students and the slow and mild ones for the beginners).
the beauty of SANATAN DHARM is that this is the only religion that explains that wat actually happens when a practitioner advances towards god……how do the nervous system reacts, wat happens to the breath, how does the breathe helps one finding his true self and so on…………(millions of other things)…….
these things are not explained in any other religion…..
Only SANATAN DHARM explains spirituality in minutest technical sense….notrhing then remains mysterious and everything is taught like we study science an
yes surely the creator has endowed you with reasoning…but make noistake in recognising what is the subject matter that you have to reason out….you are( your mental faculties) are structured to reason out algebric expressions, to learn mathmatics and to understand history and political science, and to invent new things to bring about social chanegsand political uprisings..and the various other modern day subjects….
most of the people belonging to any religion for that matter have bloated egos and think that they know a lot….but what they know is only what they have been allowed to know…but for them that is the end of the world and one day they depart from this world, knowing nothing.
everything that has any spiritual connection no matter which religion it belongs to is locked, or we can say has two meanings one for the common people and one for the sincere seeker, who has activated his dormant mental faculties, such a person starts to percieve the world with a very different p
dear brother the last question that u have raised is of the rationale behind god taking human form……..so on this front i would like to say that the love and compassion of a devotee compels the ultimate lord to take human form…..i will explain how….suppose some devotee practices austerities and is completely devoted to god and one fine day god, who is very happy with this devotee appears(since it has no shape lets assume a light appears) and conveys to that devotee that now his wait is over and the almighty is in front of his eyes and afte a while, the god wants to leave but the devotee in no way and under no circumstances want the god to leave and cries his heart out and rolls on the floor in agony, then the god asks him that what does he actually wants?? so the devotee says that i want to see u, feel u, feed u, be with u everywhere, so the god says that i have always been with u its just that u didnt know all this while, and also in future i will be with u always like i do with eve
Jun 10
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
I am not replying right now as your last few messages seem to be clipped off at the end.
I have made changes in my settings so you can now view the scrapbook.
Jun 10
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…
dear brother i have seen the msgs they have indeed disappeared somewhere.
well i just have to add one thing tht has the appearance of god in human form has always been within the hindu society one such saint(as u would call them)( we call them god) is in my album , the bald hefty man.
there are innumerable instances when this man used to busy himself in all the ordinary daily chores and to the dismay of some of his disciples he was once seen arguing with a taxi driver alleging that he was charging more fare………but i have met people who have seen his true form the form that he revealed to his most sincere disciples, once he ordered one of his closest disciples to follow him to the forest in the dead of the night, and then when they reached the forest the disciple gathered courage and asked him what it was all about??? then he said that u really are a spoilt brat, you have troubled me for so many of your past lives, and now hold your breath……then he assumed such infinite dimensi
so dear brother this is all i have to say…….
many people come up with bizarre arguments that all that i have just talked baout cud be some trick like david coperfield does and other foolish explanations…so i just keep quite as i know that this is what a loser does, keeping on muttering whatever comes into his mind and thinking that he has won the battle.
and our scriptures have sternly commanded that, “one should not get into any sort of arguments with fools and sceptics”
please visit india someday and if SRI RAM willing i will take you to such temples that you will not believe your eyes.
jai sri ram
Jun 12
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
I feel that from all the discussions we have had so far the concept of God has been diluted a bit too much and the constructs have been difficult for me to grasp.
It would therefore be useful if we both first agree on a few points regarding God and his attributes so that the facts become easier to comprehend.
1 God is one and without any partners. By one I mean He is indivisible – it can not be that we have one God doing one thing and another one doing the opposite with an independent ability, totally unaware of what the first God is doing. Such a scenario would only result in chaos.
But, if we observe carefully, the whole universe is clearly a work, a production and a management of a single mind. There is nothing in the physical world, which leads us to believing in the existence of a second or a third god. Even the apparently opposing phenomena in the world combine to form unblemished harmony and a sweet rhythm. Although the skies, the earth, the moons and the stars, are independent entities and one may be driven by the apparent diversity and variety in them to consider them the production of different architects, yet they all combine together to form a single system, in which each is playing its allotted role.
The scorching heat of the summers and the chilling cold of the winters may by its apparent variation draw one to believe in ascribing seasons to different gods, yet with the advancements of our knowledge of the physical world, we know today that the change in seasons is only a result of the systematic movements of the celestial bodies. Likewise, the variation in the phenomenon of life and death can lead us to ascribe the two to different powers, yet a closer look at the two would show that, under the present physical setup, death is essential for the sustenance of life itself.
It is primarily because of the complete lack of any plausible argument in favor of the existence of other deities as well as the lack of authorization from God to the effect, that Islam considers ascribing false partners to God, as a blasphemy against God and thus, an unforgivable sin.
2 God is limited in certain ways as His omnipotence is subject to His mercy, wisdom, omniscience and His other attributes. This is a very essential teaching of Islam because otherwise a person will have no answer to questions based on a ‘Playing Tom’ view of an omnipotent God, such as: “If God is ‘omnipotent’, can He create another one like Himself?” Or “if God is ‘omnipotent’ can He commit suicide?” Or “If God is ‘omnipotent’; can he throw the pious in Hell and place the evil in heaven?”
3 Every human being at some stage of his life does ponder over the question that why does he exist The very question regarding the ‘whyness’ of the existence of man and other created objects comes into play only because man, the universe and other creations are, in fact, created objects. It is only when we realize that man is created (and not the Creator himself), do we ask ‘why is man created’. Had man existed on his own, without being created, the question regarding the ‘whyness’ of his creation would not even have arisen. Only when something exists on its own, is it, itself, the reason for its existence.
Please go through these premises at least 4-5 times and let me know if any clarifications are required.
Brother, these and a few more are the basic points, upon which my entire religion is based, and only when I get to know what Santana Dharma has to say about them would we be able to have a fruitful discussion.
Jun 12
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram….
dear brother i have gone through the messegaes that you have wriiten and I dont have much to say now, because i will have to repeat what i have said before that there is no question two or three different gods and SANATAN DHARM doesnt endorses this idea at all. all it says is that there is one god in different forms.
you cannot se god, you call him invisible because you never wanted to see god, the preponderence of the idea of the god being absolutely remote is what drives people to have these kindof ideas..
brother i gently urge you to read AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI written by Paramhansa Yogananda, which has been a best seller the world over, then you will have an insight in the technical realities(as per SANATAN DHARM) of spirituality.
I KNOW U WILL SURELY LOVE THAT BOOK.
JAI SRI RAM
Jun 13
Rish.Rocks:
no where has anybody in my social circle claimed to have known different gods on the basis of extremeties like you have mentioned in your scraps.
it would be for people with very shallow intellect to ascribe different gods, like your god and my god, on the basis of extremeties like weather, geographical positions and so on……
that true that man was created and the universe and stars were created, but please dont forget the fact that they were created by god out of his ownself. why would god want to keep himself aloof from the common people???? is god full of ego..?? is god proud to be god??? he permeats every atom….thats what SANATAN DHARM says……and there are millionsof forms in which ihe is worshipped, and that is not at all ascribing a partner to him.
if i like you in a different attire then would it be that i am ascribing yusuf any other partner.???
certainly not i ust like to see you in another attire…thats as simple as that.
in gods knowledge there no ego, no hatred no sense feeli
Jun 15
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be on you dear brother
Sorry to tell you that we wont be able to exchange any message for the next 10 days as I’m visiting my grandma’s place.
The good news is that I have got hold of the book you told me about and I’ll try to finish it by the time we get back to our discussion.
Peace
Jun 20
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram ….
oh my pious brother…..if you hold your hand you still hold my hand, if i hold my hand i still hold your hand, if i hold your hand I am still hodling my own hand………….oh brother lets endeavour together to forsake the rudimentry dogmas of tradition and tread the path of truth to realise the underlying unity, that you and I and god are actually one and the same.
march ahead and break the shell..!!!!
jai sri ram
Jun 12
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
I’m sorry I didn’t get the chance to read the biography but I promise I would soon have a look at it.
Resuming our discussion from where we left it I would like to point out that you probably read me wrong. I haven’t yet talked about the invisibility of God; rather I was mentioning the INDIVISIBILITY of God. When a person says that human beings can be God then, among other things, he is negating the fact that God is INDIVISIBLE (the meaning of which I have stated in premise no.1), but humans are all creatures who can think and act independently and their actions do clash. This only implies that inside God there is a constant conflict and He has different opinions about the same thing. This, of course, is an absurd thing to say.
You say that once the veil of ignorance is lifted a man realizes he is God. You may propose that now he acts in the way that God would have acted in identical circumstances but even then how does one explain the presence of the ignorant people who are also Gods. Isn’t that ignorance being attributed to God – the All-Wise and All-Knowledgeable?
Jun 30
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram dear brother…..
kindly go through the book once….and then we will resume our discussion.
i guarantee that you will find the book very interesting.
jai sri ram
Jul 10
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram dear brother…
hope you have gone through the book…
jai sri ram
Jul 12
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
I still have a few chapters left. Hopefully, I might finish them off in 2-3 sittings.
Jul 13
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…dear brother its good to learn that you have been reading the autobiography…it will really give you as insight in hindu spirituality based on yoga..
please let me know when you have finished reading the book
jai sri ram
Jul 18
Yusuf Estes:
Peace be with you dear brother
I have read the autobiography and must admit that it was very interesting. Truly, it turned out to be something I had least expected. However, the book doesn’t address many of the questions that I have, and understandably so, as it’s not intended to be a point by point rebuttal to questions that people of other faiths have regarding the Hindu beliefs.
But now that I have at least some familiarity with beliefs of my Hindu brothers, the nature of the Guru-Disciple relationship and a crude idea of what Yoga really is, I feel that our discussion would be more productive.
As many events mentioned are a bit too hard to be believed just by reading them I ask you to first tell me whether or not you endorse every single thing mentioned in the book.
Jun 18
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…
yess dear brother even before you have mentioned i knew that the contents of the book would certainly put any prudent man who is bred in todays scientific environment to probe wether its really true or not..???
yess i fully endorse every single bit written in this autobiography because i have been fortunate enough to understand the principles of yoga and what an accomplished yogi can be capable of doing…….what ever is written is ture to its every detail and the yogic phenomenons and other miracles were a common sight until afew centuries ago, before the advent of of the so called industrial revolution which came with the british occupation.
as far as babaji(mahaavtar babaji) is concerned no amount of adjectives in any language can define his statute and truly so he is still living…..i ask u to test it yourself …..just think of him with pure heart and u will get back the messege…….this has been tried by many….one of such person is Marshal Govindan, any AMERICAN in the United States Foreign Service who concentrated hard on babaji and had gradually the chance to meet him in flesh and blood.
lease forgive me for any spelling and gramatical errors…
Jun 19
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
In one of my previous scraps I had requested you to explain the quite apparent inconsistency that arises when a person says that everything is God or a part of God and then also acknowledges the fact that there are ignorant people in the world.
If we agree that God is a being who is all knowing then in what way would you explain this contradiction in terms?
Also, as I read the biography, the author many times stressed the need for people to be rational and gives his approval to the idea that principles of rational and simple living should be inculcated in children but at certain other places he says that to achieve communion with the infinite every wall of rationalization should be demolished and in reality rationality is a subconscious barrier. In this regard I found him equivocating.
By being rational I mean that a person exercises his intellectual ability which allows him to know right from wrong or to know what must be, can be and cannot be. That is to say the human mind can achieve certainty regarding some things (for e.g. part of something is always lesser than the whole or 1 cannot be equal to 2 in case of natural numbers etc.)
Do you agree?
Jun 19
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram brother
i am delighted to find u online today…..
brother i would like to tell u that lke u have mentioned that the author is advocating the inculcation of rational and simple living and at other places he has said that rationalisation is a subconcious barier…..so i would like to tell u that he has used the same word with different connotations……on the frist instance where he is advocating it he is trying to stress the idea of yogic rationalism, and where he callsit a barier there he equates it with the modern scientific thought..which is indeed a barier to self realisation
yogic intellectualism is very much different from what the kind of intellegence and intellectual ability we find today….please refer to what i said in one of my scraps about only 2% of the brain of the present human beings at work…the rest is dormant….yogic intellect certainly consists of more than 2% of your brain functioning and that alters the way we percieve the mundane world….
here the author also stresses simplicity(as per your reproduction)…..in modern times rational thoughts cannot be combined with simplicity…a man of today who thinks rationally would be hell bent to take everything he encounters with logic based on his social and educational upbringing and while defying the supernatural and spiritual phenemenons, and with no one to provide him a satisfactory explanation he would swell with ego…which then forms a vicious circle and binds one to falsehood all through his life
Jun 20
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
How is ‘Yogic intellectualism’ different from the way every other rational person thinks? It would be appreciated if you explain that with the help of few examples. In case it’s true I may not be able to understand them but nevertheless you can still state your case.
As far as the basic fact of yoga regarding only 2% of the brain being activated is concerned you say that it is a fact testified in medical science. I request you to give some reference of a credible authority to that effect.
I ask you to do so because a google search returned results to the contrary saying that this is an old myth confuted by medical science.
Ref. Under the heading Common Misconceptions on the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain
Jul 22
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…
dear brother had the theory of the functioning of our brain as per yoga been available on google than we wouldnt have been discussing it the way we are doing it right now…..yess verily the theories and realities of the world’s oldest religion are discarded away in derogatory manner, declaring it as a myth, this is the apathy that the world and the present civilisation is going through….realities and practices which are abundantly beneficial for the human race at large have just vanished or are put under suspision
i have read it somewhere in the newspaper here at new delhi and some of my doctor friends and their teachers have corooborated the fact about the functioning of the human brain….if i come across any such news article then i will surely let you know.
yogic intellegence is diffrent from normal human intellegence i will explain you how…..the brain of a person when it is allowed to grow at the way it grows now a days normally has some specific regions of its part as being active…….thats the normal person who doesnt practice yoga(by this i donot mean yoga of today(which is not real)..i strictily mean yoga as per ancient scriptures, hath yoga, kriya yoga etc……but a child who is put under such practoces from the very start certainly develops many other areas of the brain in addition to what a normaly bred child would develop..
now this thing makes the very difference…yess it doesnot alters the calculation 2+2=4 but a person with yogic intellect is internally inquisitive and would want to know where this calculation came from, where the no. 2 came from and so on…..i know it sounds a little confusing but to cut it short it would be like if i and u were to meet someday i would before hand know what you would like to talk about and what’s going on in your mind i may not now it fully but i can have fair idea, such a person has penerating sight and can get into the skin of everything through his supercharged brain cells.
few examples: the vedic scriptures and other hindu texts written thousands of years ago have complete astronomical science, it even has the atomic composition of far away planet like saturn and venus etc, how was it possible so long ago…even when we today with most modern technologies are still gropping in the dark
the same thing applys to a iron pillar which is situated at a historical complex in new delhi, the pillar is satnding out in the open for centuries and has withstood storms, rains etc but has never rusted till now, scientist from your sountry, russia and france along with some indian scientist tried hard to decipher the secret of such superior mettalurgy but have not been able to uncover the mystery, so brother a man who posseses yogic intellect is light years ahead in every dimension of human capabilites from is modern day counterparts
PS: where i have mentioned myself its just only for the purpose of creating an example and i have not been fortunate enough to put it into practice
Jun 24
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
I asked for a reference only because of your assertion that the fact was proved by science. It is a possibility and may or may not be true. But since there is, as yet, no way to validate such a claim it would only be fair if you avoid using it as a basis for belief.
What I want to know, in essence, is that what would have prompted you to become a Hindu had you not been born as one? Surely miracles can be cited as evidence but we must remember that they are proof only for the one who has himself witnessed them and not for the masses in general (even in the autobiography we observe that people, initially skeptical, became devout disciples only after they themselves saw miracles and were thereby convinced).
A person with ‘Yogic Intellect’ may have penetrating sight and may know what is going on in another person’s mind but you yourself confess that you have never put that in practice. How then do you know that it really happens? Maybe you accept it as part of your faith. No problem. It’s not an impossible explanation and may be entirely correct. But what I want to stress is that it is only an explanation unless you back it up with proof.
In Islam we have certain core beliefs that can be defended by reason alone, without referring to scriptures. Every other belief follows from these fundamentals. Is there anything like that in Sanatan Dharma?
There are many Muslims who with their forced interpretations make a great fuss claiming to have found modern scientific miracles in the Quranic verses. I could give you a long list of these ‘scientific statements’ to prove my point but it is essentially a futile exercise as the cited verses are mostly implicit in nature and if a similar way of crooked reasoning is applied, a non-muslim can easily prove other such verses to be unscientific. What I mean to say is that unless explicitly stated a verse either in the Quran or in the Hindu scriptures cannot be insisted to be revealing a scientific fact as it could very well mean something else. So unless a crystal clear verse which can have no other possible meaning is presented as evidence such claims of technological advancements are unjustifiable.
Forgive me for being too blunt but I felt the whole discussion would go around in circles if the distinction between explaining something and proving something wasn’t clarified.
Jun 27
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram….
yess dear brother you have rightly pointed out that some muslims have forcibly tried to interpret the verss of the holy quran in order to extract modern scientific theories out of them….and i would like to add one more thing to the statement that you have made that all the divine scriptures have various meanings to it one is for the common people, it is the one that is visible to everybody and which is very obvious and the other are deep spiritual meanings that are not meant for everybody, only the sincere devotees get to know these emanings and such meanings are of such nature that they cannot be comprehended by a common person under any circumstances. Also these meanings cannot be made a hot topic to discuss in some public forum.
please try to understand that what i have meant to say in my previous scraps about the yogic intellectual capabilites and scientific advancement of that era doesnot points towards our divine scriptures, here i am talking about the extraordinary science that hindus had, and which has been destroyed due to various reasons. There in these scientific texts the question of forced interpretation doesnot arise at all, one such example is our ancient hindu astrology, which is a major part of almost all the citizens of this country, irrespective of their religion. i ouwld like to mention to similar books one is the NADI SHASTRA, written by SRI AGATSYA MAHARISHI 30 thousands years ago and one more is the BHRIGU SAMHITA written by BHRIGU RISHI, both these were highly advanced saints and SRI AGATSYA MAHARISHI was the guru of MAHA AVTAR BABAJI(the ever living saint of the autobiography), in both these books the futureof every individual and who had taken
birth before their time and all who would come after they take samadhi(equated with death but it really means distancing themselves from the material worldforever) is written, now you will be astonished to hear the details which of every other individual is covered in the book…….like for example if your thumb impression is matched in the old palm leaves, he even knew everybody’s thumb impressions, then you would be given your father’s name your grandfather’s, his father’s his father’s and so on…..and each and every deatail including the kind if thigs that you have seen in your life, how you look like, what dream you had on say the last christmas eve, who was your high school crush, how many women you have dated, what ailments do you suffer from and why..?? where will your son get married, how many children will he have……i mean to say that each and every deatial of your life, be it anyhting, it all there.
One more example of immense important is that of SWAMI VIVEKANANDA, the modern day hindu saint and yogi, who had given a speech on sanatan dharm, at Chicago, which was widely acclaimed, he would just give a fleeting glance on any book and would memorise each and everything, including the punctuations. He was initiated in yoga by RAMKRIHSNA PARAMHANSA WHO USED TO FEED THE IDOL OF GODESS kali and the Dakhineshwar temple in Calcutta.
why would i want to become a hindu is a very difficult question and therefore I am unable to answer it, through the internet
Jun 31
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
I am willing to accept anything that you may offer me as proof regarding the divinely inspired scientific advancements of the ancient Hindu society but would respectfully like to point out that all of the examples you quoted in your previous post do not constitute proof. Proof is something you can give to another man and let him analyze it, the deeper he analyses it the closer he gets to the truth. However, as you yourself admit that the books that were written have been lost, there is little that can be offered as proof.
Astrology on the other hand is considered a pseudoscience and so does not lie within the domain of what we discuss as scientific advancements.
As far as my statement regarding the core Islamic beliefs is concerned I am glad that you asked for an elucidation. Brother, almost all of the Islamic beliefs (predestination, existence of a hereafter, impossibility of god incarnating in flesh etc.) emerge from the recognition and understanding of the one Supreme Being. So, if I can provide a reasonable and logically consistent proof for the Islamic concept of God I can be certain of having a firmly grounded basis for belief.
One such proof is based on the following two premises
- We exist here today.
- Before we existed there were a series of events, one after another leading up to our existence today. (The passing of such a series of events is what we call time, and is measured in minutes, days, weeks and years.)
Before proceeding any further I want you to tell me whether you accept these premises or not.
Aug 5
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram …
dear brother the elucidation about islamic beliefs that you have presented here is very very vague. Yes I do agree with these so called proofs that you have given here regarding our existence and the series of events but then anybody or everybody has to agree with these points. Well frankly I would like to confide in you that I and many other non-muslims are of the view that islamic beleifs are the most non practical and donot constitute of a solid proof at all, I have spoken to many muslims here and they just cannot explain their theories in the minutest technical terms, for eg: if i ask someone that why do you offer prayers five times a day and what does the movements mean?? What spiritual significance doeas these movemments have???? Why do you offer circumambulation of the Kaba??
I have had very bitter experiences regarding my dialogues with these muslim guy and also cleric, instead of giving any convincing answer they harp the same old tune that god cannot incarnate in flesh and so on………this only sows the seeds of bitterness and nothing else. On the other hand I had just once had a chance to enter into a dialogue with one american christian brother named Brother Braun, while in a flight to Mumbai he caught my attention when I noticed him holding a book titled Metaphysical Christian Meditations but I didnot ask him anything, on the other hand he broke the by comenting o my addidas jersey, we exchanged our ideas on spirituality and our respective religions at the end he gifted me one copy of the Holy Bible, the beauty of this three hour long conversation struck deep inside me, its not that I decided to become a christian and leave my faith, but the way he expalined me everything regarding his faith and the balance that he maintained while guarding his beliefs.
he was so serene so soft spoken, exhibited such opulence that I was convinced that Christ and his men hate none and love all. This wonderfull experience had forced me to make comparisons within myself, with the kind of bitterness and hatred displayed by the muslims with whom I had the dialogues.
Now as far as the proofs are concerned I really cannot understand that if people’s testimonies donot constitute a credible proof then what othe rthing would suffice.
The personal account of Mr’ Faisal who got all his records through our astrological science should suffice. The newspaper reports of your country which describe the phenomenal intellectual capabilities of Swami Vivekananda. The video recording of the speech of the former president of your country Mr’ Bill Clinton while addressing the Indian parliament where he declared that had the hindu scientist not contributed the ZERO then we wouldnt be having such technological advancements in science and computers.
One more thing that warrants mention here is that there is one Baba Ramdev who is a yoga practitioner and who has been credited by the common people of India as a messiah, he is credited to have made public the PRANAYAM (the special yogic breathing exercies).
His show is telecasted everyday in the morning and the evenings and millions of people do theseexercise diligently and the result is that millions of these practitioners have cured their various ailments like cancer, aids, diabetes, heart problems, obesity etc etc.
he has caused losses worht billions of dollars to multi national business conglomerates which produce medicine, because people no more buy them, people no more visit the hospitals.
so brother this is it, what the hindus have to offer is veru much there, much more evidently for anyone and everyone to try it on their own and experience it, where as no other religion has such thing ready thatcan be directly experienced.
And what all the others have offer is vague arguments, twisting and turning historical episodes, but nothing practical that can be experienced right then and there.
A hindu who is well versed in his scriptures cannot be surprised in anyway, its like if you come to India and I show you the elevator, as a matter of pride hoping to impress you in terms of our technological developements, then you would just laugh at it, saying to your own self “oh god how ignorant and backward these people are, that they dont even know, we had these things centuries ago”
I have read many books of islam and talked to many people but they did not tell me anything that would just catch me by utmost surprise, just nothing at all of that sort, I also just keep smiling and maintain my confirmatory nods thinking that they have light years behind us.
brither for your information I would like to tell you that astrology is not a psuedo-science, we consider it a complete science with complete explanations of cause and effect.
Aug 8
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you
Dear brother I apologize on behalf of the Muslims with whom you had discussions. It is really disappointing that members of our community do not take out time to read their scriptures and are unable to answer such basic questions. But please do not form an opinion based on the actions of a few unaware individuals.
You said the proof was vague. Brother, I have not yet presented my case. I only stated the premises of my argument. There are some people who claim to doubt everything, even sometimes their own existence. I just wanted to make sure that such sophistry or extreme relativism does not come in the way later.
I request you to bear with me for a while as I am not responding to all the other things you wrote in your last post. Please let me explain my case first which is as follows-
If one accepts the first premise then he must also accept that the series of events in the second premise must have a beginning. This must be, because if someone claims that an eternal amount of events had to be concluded before his existence, then he is saying that eternity came to an end, which is a contradiction in terms.
The argument is an instance of the pitfalls that you can encounter in talking about infinity. It is like if someone said “this car will only get to its destination after its wheels have spun infinitely many times,” and then claimed that the car arrived at its destination. It is clear, however, that the car could never have gotten to its destination if an infinite number of spins was the condition for its arrival.
Please let me know if everything I have said up till now is clear.
Aug 8
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram….
dear brother whatever you have written by now is somehow difficult to comprehend and also a little confusing…..it would be better if you could please simplify it.
jai sri ram
Aug 8
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
Even I found the infinity thing a little confusing at first, but believe me you won’t take long to comprehend it. I’ll try explaining it in simpler terms.
For a moment forget everything else I wrote and think about the example of the car which I gave.
I said that there is a car which has to travel from one point to another, that is to say it starts at one place and stops at some other place.
But the condition for it to reach its destination is that its wheels should first spin infinite number of times.
Now, infinity is not a very big number (although we represent it mathematically with a symbol) rather it is the quality or state of endlessness i.e. the wheels should go on spinning for ever and ever and ever and should never stop.
But if some time later someone says that the car reached its destination then we are up against a contradiction.
Because the car reaching its destination implies that the cars wheels stopped spinning.
But the condition of infinite spins requires that its wheels never stop spinning.
Since stopping and never stopping are mutually exclusive events they both cannot occur simultaneously.
Thus one has to conclude that the car will never reach its destination.
Please let me know if this is clear enough.
Aug 9
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…
dear brother thanks a lot , now you have made much simpler, I have understood it till now.
you may please proceed.
jai sri ram
Aug 10
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
I suppose that now you can better understand what are called as ‘verbal absurdities’ or ‘contradiction in terms’.
If I say that my great-grandfather knew how to draw ‘circular squares’ then would you believe that?
If you know how square shapes and circular shapes are defined you wouldn’t even care asking for a copy of those drawings. You know such a thing cannot exist, because it doesn’t mean anything. The term is a verbal absurdity.
So, if someone said that an infinite amount of time (or an infinite number of events) preceded our existence then he just made a statement which contains a verbal absurdity.
The absurdity is that – infinity ended. Infinity is defined as the state of endlessness, then how can it end. If it ends it isn’t infinity.
If occurrence of infinite amount of events is the precondition for our existence then we should never have come into existence (make a comparison with the car never reaching its destination). But you have agreed that we exist here today.
The only other alternative is that the number of events that precedes our existence must have a limit or in other words these series of events had a beginning.
Before I continue please tell if you have any doubt?
Aug 10
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…..
dear brother please continue, i will post my rejoinders after your goodself have completed.
jai sri ram
Aug 11
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
Once we have proved that it is necessarily true that this series of events has a beginning, then, it must also be that before this beginning there were no series of events (defined as – anything with a beginning). If someone claimed otherwise, then they would end up with the same contradiction (saying that infinity came to an end).
Rather, there must be a Creator that gave the series of events existence, since it was nonexistent before it began. Moreover, since it is impossible for there to be any events before the existence of this series, then it must also be that the Creator is not attributed with events, i.e. with any attribute or action that has a beginning. This again means that the Creator does not resemble His creation, since all created attributes must have a beginning. Actually, having a beginning and being a creation is the same thing. This is because to create is to bring into existence, and everything with a beginning must have been brought into existence.
We know from the above, by mathematical precision and logical necessity, that the Creator exists and does not resemble His creation. From the fact that the world has a beginning, we have proven that it must have a creator. The name of this creator is Allah in Arabic. If someone asks, “Who created Allah?” we say Allah does not have a creator, and does not need one as He has no beginning. If someone then asks, “how can you accept that Allah has no beginning, while you do not accept that the world has no beginning?” The answer is that we have shown that the world has a beginning based on the fact that it changes (changes are events). We do not believe, however, that Allah changes. Rather, we believe He is One, and doesn’t change and has no beginning.
The fact that Allah does not resemble His creation can also be known by saying that since God’s existence must be (as shown above), then it cannot also be merely possible (since “must be” and “possible” are incompatible meanings – something cannot be both a must and a possibility at the same time). Therefore, He must be clear of any attribute that belongs to the possible category of things. For example, weakness, limits, boundaries and needs are attributes that may or may not have existence; their existence depends on them being created; their existence is a possibility, not a must. They need a Creator to specify their limits. We know that we need a Creator, because we know that our own attributes need specification. We know they need specification because they have limits, and limits must be specified. For example, if you pointed at a table in a room and said, “Who made it in that shape?” and someone answered, “No one, it is just there like that eternally!” Would you accept this? Of course not, because we know anything limited needs someone to specify it.
According to the proofs above, Allah is not attributed with limits, since He is not created. We can also safely conclude that Allah has a Will to specify events, and unlimited Power to create them. We can also conclude that He must have knowledge, because specification without knowledge is impossible. It is now easy to see also, that no event can take place without Him willing it. All of this is according to the teachings of Islam, and what all prophets taught.
If someone asked: If an event can be defined as an action that has a beginning and giving a series of events existence is an action with a beginning (and if it’s not, then what is it?), then how can one rationally conclude, based on the logic presented above, that the Creator is not attributed with events?
The answer to this is that I did not define events as actions having a beginning, but as “anything that has a beginning.” Actions may have a beginning, namely the actions of creation – as they all share this resemblance, or they may not, namely the actions of Allah.
Allah does not resemble His creation, so He is not an event or attributed with events. This is because to “create” is to “bring into existence,” and all events are therefore by definition created. As Allah’s attributes are not creations, they are not events.
Note that the actions of Allah Himself are not describable, as they are actions not bounded by time. They are actions without a how (bilaa kayf). Our lack of understanding is not a problem for the argument presented, because we have already shown, and we can definitively understand, that no action of Allah has a beginning. Then we stop there, and do not delve on it, or say “how?” There are things in creation that are beyond our grasp, such as the pattern of quarks, so what about the Creator, who does not resemble anything?
Last but not least, in attempt to confuse, or out of confusion some may ask: “What if the world’s existence is cyclical?” Our answer to this is that cycles are still one cycle one after another, so they are events. Some may also ask, in an attempt to confuse: “Before Allah created this series of events, was He able to create another series or not?” Our answer to this is that this is a nonsensical question, because what we established was that there must be an event that is first, regardless of the number of series, or the number of worlds preceding the current one. We also established that Allah’s actions are not events, so they are not described with a “before.”
Please tell me if you need any clarifications before I move on to the implications of the above proof.
Aug 11
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram….
please proceed
Aug 15
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
From the above proof we know that Allah necessarily exists (although His existence is indescribably different from anything else’s existence) and is uncreated.
He has attributes which are also uncreated. The relationship between Allah and His attributes is something that the human being neither knows nor should be bothered with. This is because what we know with certainty is that
1. He has those attributes (as established in the proof)
2. Some things are beyond our comprehension
His attributes are neither a part of Him nor separate from Him.
A somewhat loose analogy to this situation may be that of a chemist. He knows with certainty that hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water. He can test this in his lab. But this does not mean that he can understand the atom or how this reaction actually takes place.
It should be understood that it is not an imperfection in Allah’s Creation that they cannot fully comprehend Him. Instead, this is because if we did understand everything then we would be up against the absurdity that Allah is limited i.e. if we knew everything about Him it would imply that He has a limited nature which can be comprehended by our limited minds.
One more thing that I want to clarify is that it is impossible for Allah or his attributes to change. This is because if they change it would imply that they were created – a direct contradiction to our conclusion that they are uncreated. So not even Allah can change His attributes or stop being Himself (i.e. God), not because He doesn’t have the power to do so but because such a thing is a verbal absurdity and does not mean anything.
If one understands the argument presented then it is impossible for him to believe that there is such a thing as incarnation because that would imply that God Almighty changed from whatever He was to a man. A man by definition is a created being with limitations. He has a height, a color, two hands, a nose and all these attributes of man require specification. For them to be specified implies them being created. And anything created cannot be the Creator.
So now you tell me that if this is the background I have, then how I can ever think of worshipping a man or an idol or any other created thing. Is it not an insult to the all powerful Creator that instead of being thankful to Him for all that He has given me I am offering my obeisance to something He created and which has no power of its own?
I know that the one who created me and every other thing is all-Hearing and all-Seeing and thus no matter where I am, if I call upon Him I know He hears my prayers. Do I then need anything as an intermediary between me and Him?
If one asserts that he will believe in God in the way he likes, giving Him any image or form then I feel that such a person should reconsider his position. How can someone take his Creator so lightly as if He deserves no respect?
But on the other hand if someone agrees with all that I have written then he is a Muslim no matter what label he has on top. A Muslim means someone who submits to the will of Almighty Allah. If you think of God in the same way and are willing to submit to Him you are a Muslim.
Aug 19
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…
I have gone through all your messages, and have found them to be interesting but not convincing. You say that god and his creation are different and god effected the series of a chain of events which lead to the present world, I simply have to ask you that how does that implies that if it is to be believed that god started these series of events then his creation is not his own representation, did god actually and carefully seperated himself from his creation..?? was god very adamant to not to be represented by his creation..?? was god full of ego.?? was god very pruod to be god..?? please explain why would god want to do so..?? just why..?? you say that worshipping a human or an idol is wrong and it amounts to showing disrespect to the almighty. But I have my grave misgivings on this statement of yours, on the contrary it is people who have always projected god as a remote entity who are showing utmost disrespect to god. It is like delimiting the limitless.
It is like confining the almighty to one corner of the universe or the space and projecting him to be so unaccessible and remote as a snobish political leader. It would be like you say that the FBI or the government of USA cannot arrest a big time criminal, here by saying so so you are simply limiting the vast powers of the government and its agencies. Dear brother we as humans have no authority to guage or measure the nature and the limits of the limitless gods. What actually such people have done is that they have put the almighty under the microscope and have commented on him, whereas they donot even know what is going to happen the very next minuite, this is taking the almighty so loosely and easily that he can be discussed over the breakfast table, this is absolute disrespect to god, not the one who says that HE is everywhere, in everything. The one who says that he is in everything and everything is he, issues such statements out of boundless love and effection, out of absolute surrender.
People should try their best not to comment on god and his attributes, as if they know him from ages. Stop the practrice of limiting him, please try to understand how disrespectfull it is..!!!! When we donot know what god is all about….just percieve that he is in everything and is everything.
We as ordinary individuals come in this world for a few decades and live our lives like normal people, eat, drink, procreate, go to parties, amuse oursevles in different ways etc etc.. and then we try to decipher the scriptures and commenton soemthing that is the very basis of this and many other universes, such statements are the product of ego and the preponderence of a single idea, no matter what happens such habits are seldom corrected.
This is the reason that it is forbidden in our scriptures to comment on god, SRI RAM, untill we have slogged for our share of yoga, after a few sessions, days, months, years and even decades (depends on the individual), the influx of the divine cosmic pran energy alters the perception of the devotee and he then starts to understand what god is all about.
Please know that there is no difference between you and the one you worship, it is just a matter of time, and if you are lucky you may realise it someday, it is none other tha you who created and owns the entire universal show, the viel of ignorance and ego has forced you to think otherwise.
If god is diiferent from us or something very remote then please search the quran and tell me the exact location, in terms of distance, direction, time taken to reach etc etc.
But let me tell you that what the quran says is also what the hindu scriptures say, that he is everywhere, now if he is everywhere then hwo can you limit him.??
Now if he is verywhere then is he not in your body..?? is he not in very sheath of your skin..?? is he not in every atom of your body..?? so then will it be false to say that you are made of god..?? and you are god himself.
Dont go by what the verse of the quran or any other holy book have to tell us,on the very face of it, there are very deep meanings of the verses of which can only be comprehended by drawing in huge amounts of pranic energy, and meditaitng on them. It doesnt matter which way you do that, but the better practice is yoga.
Otherwise we will just continue to argue like this, which would indeed be a futile exercise.
Aug 23
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
Most of the questions that you have raised have been answered in the proof. I would, however, state them once more for your convenience. But before that please clarify the following- you agree that before the cosmos came into existence God did exist. But what do you believe happened after the act of creation? Do you believe that God is still present as He was before, along with this Creation (which in this case would be a part of Him as per your asseveration) or do you believe that He changed from whatever He was into this Creation and so does not exist anymore in the way He existed before creating this universe?
Aug 23
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…
yess god still exists the way he did before the creation of the universe and infact he only is what we see, its just that its in a diferent form
Aug 24
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
You say the proof wasn’t convincing. I am a little surprised to hear that. Of all the non-Muslims with whom I have shared this proof I have always got a nodding, “yes you are right,” and then…. nothing. As if I had told them something very ordinary, that has no implications. But never has someone said it doesn’t prove the point.
In any case, I am restating the reason why I feel it’s impossible for God to actually physically manifest Himself as anything that we see in this universe.
Dear brother, God is not ‘what you are’, it’s ‘who you are’. What I mean by that is that divinity is not like a coat that you wear and which you can put off and give to anybody else or like a job in the office which can be given to different people.
If someone is divine he has to be so since ever and for ever. You cannot start being divine. So there is no such thing as God giving you a little bit of divinity. It’s a verbal absurdity.
I don’t understand why it must be on account of adamance that the creator is distinct from His creation. Do you mean that God can only be close to His creation if He is physically present with them? Why do you think that God cannot be separate from His creation? Can He not love them and provide for them without being a part of them? In fact to have a ‘part’ means having a partner. We Muslims do not ascribe partners to God.
I actually do not understand what you mean by saying that God and His creation are the same because the two are so obviously dissimilar. God is all-knowing and can create anything from nothing by merely willing to do so. None of His creation has that ability.
God doesn’t require to eat or to sleep but I do. How then can I be God?
In fact to say that God’s creation is a part of His being is a statement which entails many difficulties. If you say that God’s creation is the same as Him then how can you account for the events that take place in the world? I have shown in the proof that from logical necessity the Creator doesn’t change. But if the universe is a part of God then changes in it imply changes in God. This goes against our logical conclusion. If you have a problem with the conclusion please tell me where my reasoning went wrong. I am ready to change my opinion if you point out a flaw.
To say that God is represented by His creation is an ambiguous statement. If you construe it to mean that the artistry in this Creation bears witness to the excellence of its Creator and represents the outcome of His eternal power and matchless knowledge then I am with you but if mean something like – His creation is somehow the same as Him then how can you escape the fact that there are wicked people in the world who rape, rob, and cheat. How is all this not attributed to the exalted Creator?
If God is some form of ancient energy and the universe is its condensed form then it implies that God is someone that can change because energy can be converted from one form to another. However, I have shown that anything that changes cannot be God.
I couldn’t understand what you meant by the example of the FBI.
You ask me if God is full of ego or is proud to be God, but ignore an implication of your own assertion. When you say that the veil of ignorance and ego has made all of us such that we cannot grasp the reality then does that not imply that God is ignorant and egoistical? After all even such ignorant people are gods.
You go on to say that we as humans have no right to gauge the limitless gods. In this statement it appears that humans are different than God (contrary to what you have been saying) and that there are many gods. If we are God then we should have every right to assess ourselves.
I do not comment on Almighty Allah or His attributes because I claim to know everything about Him. In fact I have already said that there are things related to God for which we do not have answers. But Allah describes Himself as Az-Zaahir which means, “The One Who’s Existence is Obvious by Proofs.” It is clear then, that these fundamental beliefs can all be proven correct with certainty.
If I say that God is not everywhere I am in no way limiting Him. I am, in fact glorifying Him because He is too exalted to be in lowly places. On the face of it, it sounds nice to say that God is everywhere but just think about it. Is God inside the toilet? Is He inside the HIV virus? No, of course not.
I ask you to read once more what I wrote regarding Islam’s stand on the omnipresence of Allah earlier. If you want to make a straw man Muslim and beat him down you can only do that with someone who has not read the Quran. I have read my Holy book and do not know where it says that Allah is physically everywhere. Please provide a reference.
There is a narration ascribed to the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in which we are told that the universe compared to the chair of Allah is like a ring in the desert and the chair compared to the throne of Allah is again like a ring in the desert. So, Muslims do not limit God by saying that He not in this universe. On the contrary we say that this universe is too insignificant a place in front of Allah. He is self-sufficient and does not need space or time to exist.
Statements like – “…If god is diiferent from us or something very remote then please search the quran and tell me the exact location, in terms of distance, direction, time taken to reach etc etc. ….” indicate the failure to conceive existence beyond material existence, and drawing analogies between the Creator and the created. It is also a failure to realize the amazing detail and complexity of creation, which brings one to the natural conclusion that it’s Creator cannot be subject to any limits. This is what Muslims mean when they say “subhan-Allah”, i.e. Allah is clear of non-befitting attributes, i.e. flaws or weaknesses.
Aug 26
Rish.Rocks:
1. jai sri ram….
dear brother I have once again read your recent messeges carefully, and once again I am of the view that these point of argument do not shed light on the truth.
I will hereby give a point by point counter argument.
Please read your own texts(of islamic sufism) carefully and then you will better understand what I am talking about. In these islamic text of sufism it is clearly sai
Now the second part of your above shown messege is also denied right away, now you say that nobody can be start being divine, its infact very baseless comment because a new sufi disciple who knows nothing but only has the strong will tou be saint, is asked to perform spiritual rituals, yoga or dhikr(incase of muslims) and then he starts to recieve the spiritual wealth(cosmic life energy or pran) throug his spiritual order, and then his way and style of living changes he finds it very difficult to tell lies, he cannot see anyone in distress or pain.
This is nothing but the advent of divinity as one inches forward towards realising his true self that he himself is the creator, and one more thing is worth mentioning here is that like you have said gods doesnt need to sleep, eat or procreate etc than you must also know that when a new disciple advances in his spiritual pursuits than the more he advances the little he can do without food and water, so what does this symptom point at.
God doesn’t require to eat or to sleep but I do. How then can I be God?
has god himself said that I will not be present in the human body, or that I will not be present in the log of wood although I will be present in the jungle. God doesnt says NO to anything, but I donot understand why some people are hell bent to limit god. I just ask you to just tell me one good reason that god is distinct from his creation.??? you say that the god doesnt change, yess i also agree with this statement but the god present himslef in different from, this is my take, it would be like when you were born , you were naked that was your true form, but then when you grew up gradually you appeared in different attires, sometimes dressed for the party, sometime for the beach, sometimes for a funeral etc etc. So its the same in case of god I agree that god or the ancient energy in reality has no shape or size, but all I am saying is that it keeps appearing in different shapes and sizes.
when you say that god and his creation are disimilar then please understand that our scriptures say that a normal human being is in a sleeping state and what ever he sees is just a dream which is not true and then the questio arises that when does a person is considered to be awake..?? the answer is: when he indulges in yoga and is able to shed his ego and ignorance(there are many technical details pertaing to this development in the human body), then he is not sleeping any more and realises the truth that he and his creator are one, he starts feeling oneness among all the other things. To you they would appear to be very distinct because you are right now in sleeping state, you may compose good poems , you may be the brain behind some of the most important inventions of the millenium but still you are sleeping(susupta awastha in sanskrit), and people live all their lives like this only and just die.
So your heart your lungs and your organs are all the same but your external appearance has completely changed, if your dad shows your first photograph when you were just a few hours old to anyone now and ask them to indentify the baby’s present day appearance from a group of people surely everyone would make mistakes. Similarly god is the same but the shape size and all the external appearances for that matter have changed. This is what appears to the sleeping human beings, but when they arise from this ignorance the real form of everything is revealed to them.
Aug 28
Rish.Rocks:
7. your statement: If I say that God is not everywhere I am in no way limiting Him. I am, in fact glorifying Him because He is too exalted to be in lowly places. On the face of it, it sounds nice to say that God is everywhere but just think about it. Is God inside the toilet? Is He inside the HIV virus? No, of course not.
here you are simply limiting god by saying that he not everywhere, you are attempting to put brakes on the lords movement and you are simply restricting him. U are simply disregarding the all pervasiveness of the lord. I donot know how this statement of your’s should be read in the honour of the lord. This could be an appropriate way for a crazy fan for defining his favourite Hollywood star but this isn’t appropriate at all to define the omnipresent god, rather its complete disrespect. Its like defining and deliberately understanding his presence according to your own whims and fancies.
See how you equate god’s likes and dislikes so lightly as saying that god cannot be at lowly places, it means the god that you are talking about also discriminates like we ignorant sleeping humans do, is this the way the lord should be addressed and defined..?? does he also thinks the same way as we do..?? this is a toilet i will not go in there.?? This is a dirty virus I must not even be around it.
Please carefully examine what you have said and how your own statements have ascrined god a partner…
Firstly you say that god is not inside a toilet and god is not inside an HIV virus, then this menas that god considers these things or places ugly and dirty like we do….so it would alos not be wrong to say that since god doesnt wants to stay at such lowly dirty places then he is not the creator of these things(places and organism) and there must be a parrallel power who creates such so called ugly dirty things, and he is also as powerfull, if not more, and is continously thriving since ages.
And if god according to your assertions percieves these to be dirty and lowly then why he is not able to eliminate these so called dirty things from this world, is he so powerless that he has no remedy but to cope up with ( or co-exist ) with HIV virus and other so called dirty, ugly things. Or if he has been trying to remove these thingsfrom the universe then there must be a constant struggle between god and the other parallel power that keeps all the ugly things alive. Or if we should understand that only god has created the HIV virus or other dirty creatures, then it should also be understood from your reasoning that god created them and then he maintained a safe distance from the toilet or the virus, and would only enter them when the need be. How baseless and absurd are these ideas, how disrespectfull you have been all this while to the ultimate creator, you should ponder over your ideas a thousand times, put them under serious reconsideraton.
Your position is like that of a blindfolded enthusiastic man who wants to measure the entire length and breadth of the mighty pacific ocean with a match stick, he puts the match stick in the water and takes it out and declares that he has now got a fair bit of idea of the length and depth and breadth of the ocean only by the amount of water that remains on the match stick. Thereby confining himself and others in darkness.
In one of your previous messeges you have said that when god answer all my prayers and sees me and listensto me all the time then why is there a need a to worship a man or a statue etc…
I want to tell you onething that your idea that god answers all your prayers is absolutely false and frivilous and without any merit……just tell me….if u ask god that transport me to my friend Rish in Dehi within no time..will it happen..?? If u ask god to make u invisiblefor a day…then will it happen.?? If u ask god that empower me such so that who ever talks to me even for a while, becomes my disciple..will it happen..? If u ask god free you from hunger and thirst wil it happen..?? can u elevate any one from suffering..?? all the answers to these questions would be a big NO, then how can u say that god answers your prayers has to be figured out.
You call god with pronoun HE, why not SHE or IT, IT should be the more appropriate since he is nothing, but u call him he since somewhere in your psyche u also know that he is a all powerfull father(male) figure. According to you God sees, hears, rewards according to ones good or bad deeds, he even discriminates, he wishes, he creates but cannot incarnate in flesh and blood…..isnt that a bundle of goof ups..!!!!
If you want to look at it at another way, which I know would be your most prefereed way, of applying logical reasoning, then we all know that god created the world and has been creating different objects , so the one who can create must be a living entity so god must be living and every living being must have a body and since he has been making all sorts objects ranging from the atomic bomb to the medieval horsecarts, to the latest stylish mobile phones then it would not be wrong to say that gods choice and preference in some field has changed entirely…………………………
I can write more and more bu whats I am trying to show here is that if we start developing ideas on god almighty and his activities by applying our logical reasoning then we would only grop in the dark(the match stick story).
8. your statement…..Statements like – “…If god is diiferent from us or something very remote then please search the quran and tell me the exact location, in terms of distance, direction, time taken to reach etc etc. ….” indicate the failure to conceive existence beyond material existence, and drawing analogies between the Creator and the created. It is also a failure to realize the amazing detail and complexity of creation, which brings one to the natural conclusion that it’s Creator cannot be subject to any limits. This is what Muslims mean when they say “subhan-Allah”, i.e. Allah is clear of non-befitting attributes, i.e. flaws or weaknesses.
It only shows your frustrations because you have been confronted with a simple question which you are not able to answer. You may call me anyhting, I dont mind, after all we live in democratic society, but my inquisitiveness is intact, and then you only call god different from your self then only you should be giving me the answer.
I am open to recieve any surprises, surprise me hard…..I bet you cannot, tell me something that strikes deep in my heart, that drives me to think about it again and again. Dont give me long baseless stories.
Give me something that I can experience right away, like I have to give, the yoga, anyone who has done it, has only praises for our religion, millions of patients have been cured..
Dear brother lastly I want to submit, that you seem to be even elder to my father, therfore if I have unintentionally hurt you in any way(which indeed I have never intended) then I kneel down and touch your feet in traditional hindu style and beg for forgiveness.
jai sri ram
jai sri ram
jai sri ram
Aug 29
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
I feel that this dialog of ours has transformed into more of a debate. Sheikh Yusuf once said that debates produce a lot of heat but no light. And after this encounter I agree with him completely.
I wanted to know about your beliefs and that I have done. Moreover, I have started to lose interest in communicating any further. I think that you are having a problem understanding what I have written because all that you ask me to answer has already been addressed. If you took the time to read and actually thought about what you are saying, clarifying your definitions, and so on, you would find you have very little to hold on to in your claims.
Please don’t think that my purpose of sharing the proof was to make a bunch of witty statements and try to prove that I am so smart. I am totally allergic to that sort of stuff. All I wanted was to let you know that we have a logical basis to our beliefs, as many people tend to think of religion and logic as incompatible. You are free to make your own conclusions and I know that I have no right to force you. I believe that the truth of the matter shall be made absolutely clear on the Last Day.
I am discontinuing this discussion but would just like to quickly summarize my earnest objections.
1. If all is God and God is all, then human beings too are God. I know enough about myself to know at an intuitive level that I am not God. Not even close. This is enough proof for me.
2. If this is something to be realized by the help of yogic exercises even then there is a problem with the claim. If God does not have limited knowledge and abilities, why would we have to grow in knowledge if we are God? Why would we even have to come to the conclusion that we are divine? If we are unlimited, why are we so limited that we do not always realize that we are unlimited?
3. We are told that the concepts cannot be adequately comprehended apart from one’s personal experience of them, but the fact is that reality is logical. To argue that logic does not apply to reality would be self-defeating, because one cannot make the claim without using logic, for e.g. the very act of saying that God is beyond logic is a logical statement about Him. How can one make a logical statement about someone who is beyond logic? Reality IS logical, and there are distinctions in our world. I am not you, and you are not me. Common sense tells me that as we converse. If you feel otherwise then all I can say is that you have your opinion and I will have mine.
You may reply to the above if you feel like doing so but I won’t be answering back. I only want you to think about it.
I am making our correspondence available online at http://www.interfaithdialog.wordpress.com
In the end I want to make a request. You asked me to read the Autobiography, which I did. Now I ask you to please read the Holy Quran. Any good translation would do.
Jan 9
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram..
brother hope you are in best of your healths and spirits…
jai sri ram
Jan 13
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram
yess did send u a scrap but then i deleted it for some reason.
yess dear brother i am again ready for it but let me tell u that its not that I have not understood what u have said, its only that, I dont ascribe your ideas any merit if things are to be viewed from the principles of spirituality. Otherwise logically your idea is fine, its like if i climb the roof top of my house and somebody(an ordinary person) questtions me that how far can u see?? then I would answer upto the horizon only, logically or to be more precise biologically, yes this is the limit. By this answer the man will accpet it without any protest but if I give him the answer that I can see upto america then if would rubbish my claims and call me a fool. So brother the point I am trying to make is tht spiritually things take a very different dimension, and to decipher the secrets of this universe we must frist develop spiritual understanding. Logically your idea is correct but this is not the case in reality. yess verily a
brother in order to understand the truth you must first shed all your religious prejudice and try to cultivate a spiritual bent of mind, that is, independent of any religious affiliation, which would then gradually be able to sense things spiritually. I have nothing much to say other than what I have already said during our previous discussion.
Jan 13
Rish.Rocks:
to u a moble phone would appear finite, but is it really so??? u would say that u can destroy the mobile phone by burning it into shes, but just think over, where does the smoke and the ashes go, they go to their parent source from where they originated that god, SRI RAM, ource from where they originated, that is in this world nothing is finite, everything is infinite its just that matter changes form, thats it.
jai sri ram
jai sri ram
Jan 15
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
The way I see your views the implication seems to be that being logical would not guide a person to the truth and that there is some different kind of reasoning (which may not necessarily be logical) that is required to grasp the truth. Also you seem to say that such spiritual capability cannot be obtained unless we shed our religious identity and we develop a spiritual bent of mind. Also, you agree with me if logical considerations are made but due to your own personal experience of something occult or your strong belief in it do not give my ideas any merit. Please first tell me if I understood you properly?
I felt that you are confusing between science and logic. Science aims to discover empirical facts about the world and the laws of nature. These are not the concerns of logic. However, science does involve logic, since we need logic to test our theories and check whether they are consistent. Brother, from a scientific point of view, you would surely not be able to see up to America by standing on your rooftop but logically speaking it is not impossible to assume that you might have some means of doing so. The only thing that is needed is to test this theory of yours on the basis of logic.
Your example of the mobile phone is somewhat unclear to me. What has the conclusion that we cannot destroy a mobile phone by burning it to ashes have to do with it being infinite.
Jan 29
Yusuf Estes:
Brother, it seems that you haven’t got the chance to see your scrapbook for the past many days. I wanted to let you know that I have been eagerly waiting for your response. Regards
Feb 2
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram..
brother i am really very sorry for not having replied your msgs….as my computer was not working at all and i had now got it repaired and will post my responses within a day or two.
warm regards.
jai sri ram
Feb 3
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…
dear brother to understand spiritual phenomenons you frist need to cultivtae spiritual understanding which defies all logical explanation…by this I mean a person’s intellect is carved out by his family and his immediated society, his peer group etc and then in the child’s formative years whatever is then fed into his mind takes a permanent seat and his whole life and his understanding of everything that he encounters in his day today life comes from that foundation, the very basis on which his entire personality rests.
this thing also applies to all the spiritual things that he encounters, and as he is completly rooted to the tutelege he had in his formative years, he then views every spiritual thing from the same perspective, which in turn never lets him see the truth. So to develop spiritual understanding we need to be completely uprooted with whatever we were taught by our family and society and let the truth descend on to ourselves freely. Well its actually a herculean task to perform because many such things as self guilt and fear of blasphemy donot permit the individual to free one self from the clutches of falsehood. And also I would like to point out one more thing is that this theory has universal application no matter what religion the indivudual belongs to, letting go all that we have learnt is really a very difficult task.
Feb 5
Rish.Rocks:
to understand something that has never been explained needs a great deal of internal struggle. Even when people try to cultivate such a thought, they cannot go far enough due feelings of self guilt of defying the so called principles that they were fed with in their formative years, also the fear of social otracisation and being publicly categorised as an infidel leads one to withdraw and remain in falsehood all through his life. This phenomenon has universal application, its within every religion and every society.
there is a famous chinese proverb…”first empty your cup, if u want the master to fill in new knowledge”, well I must also say that, its easy said then done.
Even hindus who dont understand yogic principles face such difficulties, but I have been very fortunate for not having to undergo any of these difficulties.
So, dear brother u contention is that if I say that a sofa is god then I am limiting the limitless and putting the infinite god in an finite category, and since god is limitless, the all powerfull and infinite, I am being disrespectfull and logically my idea cannot stand the test at all.
Well here I have reteriet what I had said in our earlier discussions, That u and i are not different and so goes that u, i and god are not different entities but we are the same in different forms and so also inlude the sofa in their.
U discuss this thing at a peer group party and under all likely hood u will be labled insane and stupid. Whereas you discuss this with some great, actually enlightened yogi or a sufi and he will add some more words of wisdom to it, perhaps some more detail and endorse it completely.
When u put even the mundane things of this world under the spiritual microscope, things take and assume absolutely different dimensions and definitions.
Suppose u are a science teacher in a school and one fine day u have to teach students about nuclear physics and the enormous power a nucleus can generate, and u point towards the desk and say that in this piece of wood there are numerous atoms and billions of nucleuses and electrona nd protons are revolving round the nucleus and they can generate such power that the whole world can be brought to an end, the students would not believe u at once.
they would even laugh at u and exclaim that our teacher has gone mad, this would surely happen because they donot understand the principles of nuclear physics, but once they start to understand the priciples of nuclear physics then they would not at all protest such explanations, as they will now be able to undertsand what their teahcer is talking about.
I will end with a verse from the holy geeta
Bhagavad geeta:
na tvEvAham jAtu nAsam na tvam nEmE janAdhipA: |
na chaiva na bhaviShyAma: sarvE vayamata: param ||
Meaning:
Sri Krishna Says: The ParamAtma(god) that is me , the jeevatma that is you and several other jeevatmas that are souls were never non-existent at any point of time in the past , neither will we become non-existent at any time in the future .( This is established from the authority of the scriptures.)”
“||Hare Krishna||”
“||Om Namah Shivaya||”
jai sri ram
Feb 7
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
To prevent this discussion from diverging away from the important issues I make a humble request to you (and at the same time remind my self) that your responses should be directly addressing the point I have raised in the previous scrap, and, of course, vice versa for me. So please first state whether you agree with me when I asked you if I understood you properly in your first scrap and then comment on my point regarding science and logic and lastly explain what you meant by the example of the mobile phone.
The only reason for my insistence to do so is to prevent this discussion from ending like the previous one. I know that you are a knowledgeable person who has a lot to say about his religion but I am also confident that you would not have any objection to my above mentioned proposal.
Feb 10
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram….
dear brother I am very sorry if my way of posting my responses has caused some discomfort to you.
in future I will post my responses as per your directions.
jai sri ram
jai sri ram…
brother you have understood me only partially, the problem seems to be the language constraint, as I believe the word “LOGIC” is posing a lot of problem, in India this term is loosely applied in day to day conversations, its like if I take a long route to some destination whereas a short route is also there then people here would say that this action of yours has no logic in it(like makes no sense).
So lets abandon the use of this word.
As for the logical consideration where I have admitted that your idea is correct is like, if u ask me is 2+2=4 correct and logical then I would surely say yes thats correct and logical.
but ask that to a yogi and he would give a diffrent expalnation.
why I say that u have to shed your religious identity is the fact that, unless u do that u cannot break the shell.
I cannot ascribe your ideas any merit because your ideas convey that they are product of a mind(s) that have no spiritual understanding.
Its like there are no atoms and nucleuses in that piece of wood and the question of the nucleuses being so powerfull doesnot arise, only because we cannot see them or feel them forces us to reject the whole idea of nuclear physics. But in modern formal education we are taught about them, but still cannot see or feel then in our class rooms, but then because we are slowly and gradually made to understand what it is we accept them.
by the idea of the mobile phone i only wanted to convey that matter changes form and it can never be destroyed in any manner. Even if u burn the phone into ashes, it is not destroyed, in the sense that it’s molecules and atoms have disintegreted and have now take some other form or shape and have gone back to it’s parent source from where it came that is SRI RAM or god.
at the end I would like to say that all that we see with our biological eyes is illusion and falsehood, so dont base your religious ideas on them, they would be nothing but illusions again.
please forgive me if my words have hurt your feelings.
jai sri ram
Feb 12
Yusuf Estes:
May peace be with you dear brother
I am using logic in the exact same sense as in the example of the short and long route that you quoted. Please explain how my usage of the word ‘logic’ differs from your understanding. Two and two always amounts to four (if we are talking of whole numbers) and nobody can claim otherwise. There is nothing that is to be explained in it. It is self evident. If you have an alternative explanation please present that as well.
I took up the religion of Islam only because it makes perfect sense to me and I invite you to show me one thing that is nonsensical in its teachings. To say that I have to shed my religious identity is too premature a statement to make if one has not pointed out an error in taking up that identity. So please tell me why I should do so and what is wrong in my identity. I will not take offense to any question of yours in this regard. So kindly ask what you may please.
What do you mean by spiritual understanding?
You give the analogy of developing spiritual understanding by the way a child comes to understand nuclear physics. But there is a flaw in your reasoning here. When we are taught nuclear physics we are supposed to follow logical principles but spirituality, according to you, need not be logical. How then can the two cases be compared? I see this as a false analogy.
If all I see with my biological eyes is an illusion then tell me how did you come to know the truth. Do you not use your biological eyes?
Feb 15
Rish.Rocks:
jai sri ram…
dear brother these messeges of yours have brought a big smile on my face, so big that the other person in my room has eagerly questioned the source of such big smile……..anyways..i think we are withering away from the purposefull discussion, something that we had intended for. I think u have not understood my reasoning properly and have taken my arguments a bit too personally.
Without any hesitation I wish to say that you are just not at all capable of understanding spirituality so all this discussion is a mere waste of time.
And to ask me to point out nonsensical teachings of Islam….so let me be very clear that the original Islam started by reverred prophet mohammed is not what u or the other muslims are following, u are following mere interpretations which best suits your imagination.
I can point out a billion plus illogical and pointless teachings of todays Islam, but that is not what I had intended in this discussion, so I would never do so.
And also it would not be out of place to mention here that Islam for many Hindus is just another form of worshipping BHAGWAN SHIV “the holy black stone inside the Kaba” and the words of quran are nothing but the words of Sri Ram in another language, so these reasons dissuade us to say anything against it anyways.
I have lost interest in this discussion as for all this while, u have not been able to understand even the basic tenets of spirituality.
lastly , since u have very confidently said that 2+2=4 and nobody can claim otherwise, so please search all your religious books and tell me spiritual significance of numbers that is 0(zero) and 1(one).
Your over confident claim that two and two is four and nobody can claim other wise, proves my point that u are strongly bound by what u have been taught and u cannot dare to think otherwise. Now dont ask me to prove how 2+2 can be something else than 4, because now I have clearly understood that u cannot comprehend spiritual principles, I am just throwing out a challenge to u to search in your spiritual books and give the spiritual significance of 0 and 1, try if u can. good luck.
jai sri ram
Feb 15
Yusuf Estes:
Dear brother
If only you could explain your views clearly I might have had a chance to understand. I do not know what to expect from this scrap of your. In any case I am still very much willing to continue the discussion.
you would do me a favor by defining spirituality first
I propose to continue this discussion on some on line forum as it seems we both have a lot of messaging to do. I am a member of uiforum.uaeforum.org
If you would like me to join any such forum of which you are a member let me know.
Interfaith Dialog 
May 23, 2011 at 12:24 am |
Hello Brothers;(Hindu)
Nice peaceful talk and knowledgeable philosophies you have contributed such a reader as I. Thank you.
But it some glitches I did find, when you described God as being ‘Indivisible’, and that he is one. But isn’t that wrong, for God(Allah), is many, he one and he is none. We cannot say that god is indivisible.
1. The main reason we hindus have so many god is not because we did not know that god is one but because it has a deep psychological truth;
when muslims boys and some fanatic hindus(worshipping only one hindu god saying that he is the most powerful) are brought up, they are taught to worship, only one god, this is the cause for communal violences in india(especially). But we are different we know that every god is one.
the reason for so many god is to respect all religions.
May 23, 2011 at 2:11 am |
Hello Brothers;(I am a Hindu)
Nice peaceful talk and knowledgeable philosophies you have contributed, to a reader as I. Thank you.
But in it, glitches I did find, when you described God as being ‘Indivisible’, and that he is one; But isn’t that wrong, for God(Allah), is many,as he is one and he is also ‘none’. We cannot say that god is indivisible, he is divisible, he is indivisible and beyond.
1. The main reason we hindus have so many god is not because we did not know that god is one but because it has a deep psychological truth;
when muslims boys and some fanatic hindus(worshipping only one hindu god saying that he is the most powerful) are brought up, they are taught to worship, only one god, this is the cause for communal violences in india(especially). But we(we three) are different we know that every god is one.
the reason for so many god is to respect all religions.
2. there are many more reasons, the other reason is geographical position in terms of people’s mindset, ie: as humans we have the tendency to change the god if we feel that the present god is not to our ‘liking’, as humans, when we are children we are taught to worship god in various forms.
if it is a police personnel, he is hardened and the god he would worship must be like him, hard punishing, highly disciplined; and if it is king he would probably worship high gods like king of gods, if its a small child he would be attracted by a heroic god or a beautiful god in the form of elephant (Lord Ganesha). These are the basic steps to attain faith; ‘like minded people remain together’. You would probably ask isn’t it bad to give a form, a form which will debase him, making him less human; but believe me god is the only one who will not complain, for there is no good or bad for him. when we start seeing the truth with our intellect that all the gods are one we will be absorbed in his ‘presence’ (only if he wishes us to). after the basic understanding when we start to understand that god cannot be just figures we move in for the next step, that all gods are one.
This is where all the intellectual people stop without knowing that there lies another step apart from this, how can god be one(finite), of course he is finite, he is also infinite, but these are paradoxes is he stuck in his own creation, one, two,etc. no because he is beyond both finite and infinite. he is beyond all the infinite dimensions.
here is an important thing, i wish to tell, in hinduism we have gods with innumerable hand, other religious people blasphemies this belief. i would ask is god so powerless that he cannot be the impossible, maybe the saints saw the god in another dimension and unable to describe the experience they procured the impossible which is god’s own creation.
so having many gods in a need for the psychological discipline of humans.
does it do any bad for the living to have many gods, no then it is the truth.
yadbutahitamatyartam tat satyamiti dharana
THAT WHICH DOES GOOD TO ALL LIVING THINGS IS TRUTH
-BHAGAVAT GITA
please do send me a mail- awiting your reply
thank you
May 23, 2011 at 2:17 am |
sorry, the first response was a mistake. the second is the full response